HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Bottomless Portafilter (40 msgs / 1675 lines)
1) From: Alex Fitch
I was wondering if anyone has tried a bottomless portafilter, and what they think of it. I have read that it help improve one's shots. 
Thanks
--------------------------------
Alex Fitch
Alex
On Feb 3, 2010, at 1:05 AM, Starfinder Stanley wrote:
<Snip>
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2) From: Ira
At 05:25 PM 5/2/2010, you wrote:
<Snip>
I've used one since the day the Brewtus arrived, It's a great teaching tool.
Ira
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3) From: John A C Despres
I've used one as well. I learned quite a bit with it and them put it away.
It is most fun to watch a great shot come out of one and it can certainly
help improve the flavor of your coffee.
John
On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 8:30 PM, Ira  wrote:
<Snip>
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4) From: Greg Hollrigel
+1
I liked playing around with mine, but when I got little spritzers, I wasn't
too happy with the mess.  I don't use one now.
Greg

5) From: Andy Thomas
I haven't used one, but my understanding -- subject to correction from thos=
e who really know, of course -- is that the bottomless pf doesn't improve s=
hots of itself, but it helps the barista see what is going on and therefore=
 correct mistakes.
From: Alex Fitch 
To: homeroast
Sent: Sun, May 2, 2010 5:25:27 PM
Subject: [Homeroast] Bottomless Portafilter
I was wondering if anyone has tried a bottomless portafilter, and what they=
 think of it. I have read that it help improve one's shots. =
Thanks
--------------------------------
Alex Fitch
Alex
On Feb 3, 2010, at 1:05 AM, Starfinder Stanley wrote:
<Snip>
 and
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
s.
<Snip>
ariascoffee.com
<Snip>
ee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
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6) From: Peter Louton
Hi there,
My friend across the street who has taken me under his wing regarding espresso, made me buy a bottomless portafilter to show how when I don't tamp properly, the water will channel.  I know when I have done it right, I have a beautiful tornado dripping into a cup.  When I don't tamp correctly, I get little sprays all over the place that I have to clean up.
Peter
Peter
-- Sent from my Palm Pre
On May 2, 2010 10:18 PM, Andy Thomas <adt0611> wrote: 
I haven't used one, but my understanding -- subject to correction from those who really know, of course -- is that the bottomless pf doesn't improve shots of itself, but it helps the barista see what is going on and therefore correct mistakes.
From: Alex Fitch <Alex>
To: homeroast
Sent: Sun, May 2, 2010 5:25:27 PM
Subject: [Homeroast] Bottomless Portafilter
I was wondering if anyone has tried a bottomless portafilter, and what they think of it. I have read that it help improve one's shots. 
Thanks
--------------------------------
Alex Fitch
Alex
On Feb 3, 2010, at 1:05 AM, Starfinder Stanley wrote:
> Mike was right; it was the thermal fuse....  Popped down to radio shack and
> bought a new one (trying not to think about the fact that everything I've
> ever purchased at RS has failed), popped it in, reassembled, and viola! it
> works!
> 
> Now all I have to do is figure out where these 4 extra screws came
> from.....  <doh!>
> 
> The perils of a trip to the store in the middle of the decon/recon process.
> Sigh....
>
> Homeroast mailing list
> Homeroast
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7) From: Joseph Robertson
Andy, that is how it works for me. When you make changes with dosing and
tamping you can see what is happening. I had a friend with a shop drill out
an extra double spout for me. Piece of cake.
When I visited miKe's shop last time he told me they made all there pf's
bottomless to make cleaning easier as well. Not to say he doesn't have pf's
on hand with spouts.
Joe
On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 7:16 PM, Andy Thomas  wrote:
<Snip>
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8) From: miKe mcKoffee
Actually no I don't have PF's with spouts for use at either of my
coffeehouses. Every single shot by every single person at my shops is pulled
nekkid. 
Quitting using a nekkid PF because of getting spritzes is like quitting
driving because your car needs a tune-up so badly it won't run. Ignoring
problems, ie primarily bad distribution, won't make the problem go away. BTW
tamp is not the main culprit of bad shots. The tamp's purpose is to preserve
the distribution. Don't believe me? No problem, stop by and I'll pull
non-channeling zero tamp shots, piece of cake. However the problem with zero
tamp shots is the group gets dirtier faster! Now OTOH a bad tamp CAN destroy
what might have been perfectly fine distribution...
Do spritzes make a mess? Of course they do. And everyone gets them now and
then. I recall getting one just today during a rush when I got sloppy with
my build, and it was immediately evident so I killed the shot and started
the beverage over. Had it not been for pulling nekkid a sub-standard shot
might have been served! Spouts can hide a multitude of sins which result in
crappy shots. And the one before that was over a week ago. Improve your
technique so you don't get channeling spritzes all the time. If you can't
pull a beautiful nekkid shot 99% of the time, you have work to do with your
PF build technique plain and simple. 
Slave to the Bean Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://www.NorwestCoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
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9) From: Peter Louton
Hi Mike,
So, if I understand, I need to just really pay attention to my distribution and grind and not so much the tamp, right?
-- Sent from my Palm Pre
On May 3, 2010 12:39 AM, miKe mcKoffee <mcKona> wrote: 
Actually no I don't have PF's with spouts for use at either of my
coffeehouses. Every single shot by every single person at my shops is pulled
nekkid. 
Quitting using a nekkid PF because of getting spritzes is like quitting
driving because your car needs a tune-up so badly it won't run. Ignoring
problems, ie primarily bad distribution, won't make the problem go away. BTW
tamp is not the main culprit of bad shots. The tamp's purpose is to preserve
the distribution. Don't believe me? No problem, stop by and I'll pull
non-channeling zero tamp shots, piece of cake. However the problem with zero
tamp shots is the group gets dirtier faster! Now OTOH a bad tamp CAN destroy
what might have been perfectly fine distribution...
Do spritzes make a mess? Of course they do. And everyone gets them now and
then. I recall getting one just today during a rush when I got sloppy with
my build, and it was immediately evident so I killed the shot and started
the beverage over. Had it not been for pulling nekkid a sub-standard shot
might have been served! Spouts can hide a multitude of sins which result in
crappy shots. And the one before that was over a week ago. Improve your
technique so you don't get channeling spritzes all the time. If you can't
pull a beautiful nekkid shot 99% of the time, you have work to do with your
PF build technique plain and simple. 
Slave to the Bean Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://www.NorwestCoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/Homeroast mailing list
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10) From: Allon Stern
On May 3, 2010, at 8:06 AM, Peter Louton wrote:
<Snip>
And I quote....
On May 3, 2010, at 12:36 AM, miKe mcKoffee wrote:
<Snip>
So they're both important.
We had a shop here (Brew Mountain) which paid as close attention to their espresso as you - all nekkid, timed, and perfect. If they didn't do it right, they'd do it over again. It is worth the wait.
Sadly, they closed :(
I guess it wasn't worth the wait to enough people in that neighborhood.
But it was a shot of espresso from these folks that taught me what good espresso can be, and gave me something to aspire to. I've greatly increased the quality of my espresso, but have not achieved consistency and am unlikely to do so until I upgrade my machine. Maybe this year will be the year I get that Silvia.
still regretting not purchasing an used S21 while driving through KS a few years back. it could have been a dream machine. Then again, maybe it would have been a nightmare.....
-
allon
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11) From: miKe mcKoffee
Remember, more important than what espresso machine you're using is what
grinder and condition of grinder. You can get better shots with a $200
espresso machine and $1000 grinder than a $20,000 espresso machine and a
$100 grinder. 
And whether a $300 or $3000 grinder it's important to replace burrs on a
regular basis, about twice as often as manufacturer stated burr life. For
instance Rocky's burrs are rated 200#, but many years experience with Rocky
tells me with very high level of confidence Rocky's burrs should be replaced
every 75 to at most 100# when grinding for espresso. IIRC eighth set of
burrs went in a couple weeks ago. (Yup, still using Rocky at home espresso
bar.) Same goes for Mazzers. Major burrs may be rated 800# (IIRC it's 800)
but grind quality drops off way before 800#...
Yes agree level, consistent pressure tamp is important if tamping. Unlevel
tamp results in lopsided over/under extracted shot. An old school bad
habit/practice I still see too often is tamping THEN tapping the PF to knock
grinds down off inner basket wall then tamping again. Quit hitting the PF up
side the head! It can often cause cracks in the build which of course leads
to channeling. 
Slave to the Bean Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://www.NorwestCoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/
<Snip>
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12) From: miKe mcKoffee
<Snip>
Bingo!
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13) From: Joseph Robertson
miKe,
Next trip to town, could I get you to demonstrate your distribution
technique for me. I have ( what I think is a consistent repeatable method )
but when using my bottomless to test myself I fail more than I should. My
weight is constant but I do need help.
Joe
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 8:13 AM, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
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14) From: John Borella
 What are you using for a grinder? As Mike said it is much more important 
then your machine. With a good espresso grinder you shouldn't have to beat 
yourself up over distribution. I use a Major & a K10WBC for espresso & all I 
do is dose a fairly centered pile into the basket, do a light nutating tamp 
& pull the shot. No stirring or excess leveling required.
John B.

15) From: Allon Stern
On May 3, 2010, at 9:33 AM, Allon Stern wrote:
<Snip>
On May 3, 2010, at 11:13 AM, miKe mcKoffee wrote:
<Snip>
True. My grinder is fairly decent, an RR45. I should probably replace the burrs...it's been  holy cow, longer than I thought, but certainly under 50#.  Anyway, I think it's adequate, not necessarily  perfect. But I think my cheapo thermoblock machine is the weakest link at the moment. I can do decent shots, but lack consistency. I think a PID'ed Silvia would be a great step forward. Eventually, I may upgrade the grinder.
On May 3, 2010, at 11:13 AM, miKe mcKoffee wrote:
<Snip>
Even before tamping?
How about banging against the table?
I do often bang and/or tap the side with the tamper, but that's before tamping.
Once tamped, it's ready. Tamping is the last thing. Well, except for swooshing any loose grounds off the edge with my finger.
-
allon
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16) From: Ryan M. Ward
Hey Mike, 
I appreciate the input you have been giving on this thread. I have wanted to get a naked portafilter for some time but I always just thought they were cool (It never occurred to me that there was a utility to them). I will have to invest in one in the near future. 
I was wondering, since we are on the topic of tamping. I have always used flat bottom tampers because of the distribution issue, although have seen several rounded bottom tampers on the market (In fact, thinking back to several years now- when I bought my Silvia, I think the Silvia might ship with a cheapo plastic, round bottom tamper). 
I have always been curious about what the shot quality looks like when tamped with a round bottom tamper but have always been sceptical. Has anyone used these? Any thoughts?
-- 
Ryan M. Ward
*Note: This email was sent from a computer running Ubuntu Linux 9.10 (Karmic Koala)http://www.ubuntu.com**Note: This signature was placed here by me and is not automatically-generated-annoying-end-of-email-spam placed here by anyone other than myself. I am a Linux nut and am doing my part to support open source software and the Linux and Ubuntu communities by getting the word out with each email I send, I encourage you to do the same.
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17) From: Dhananjaya
Alex, I have been using them for several years now and have found them to
give me good insight into how my grinding, tamping etc. come together where
it counts.
Cheers,
DJ

18) From: sci
I can't live without the naked portafilter. Highly recommend. It gives so
much information about the shot that I simply feel like I'm driving with one
eye closed if I use a normal portafilter. Basically, I agree with everything
Mike says. Spritzes tell you something is wrong, micro channeling that
travels through the puck. Stop the shot and start over. It also shows
channeling. If one side of the extraction goes blond, you know you screwed
up the distribution or the tamp. I love it when everything comes together
and I see that thick cone of dark crema glooping (is that a word?) down into
the cup with the right timing.
I'm can't pull every shot well. I usually sink one shot for every good shot.
But at least I know that I have a good shot with the naked portafilter.
Ivan
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
From: Alex Fitch 
To: homeroast
Subject: [Homeroast] Bottomless Portafilter
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I was wondering if anyone has tried a bottomless portafilter, and what they
think of it. I have read that it help improve one's shots.
Thanks
--------------------------------
Alex Fitch
Alex
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19) From: Derek Bradford
Ryan,
I've used both flat and curved bottom tampers (both the European and the
American curve), but I've only used one kind per machine.  With all the
tampers, careful dosing and tamping eventually led to consistent,
well-prepared shots.  I once switched from a flat to the European curve
(which is the most curved of the two), and it took me a couple days to get
used to it.  But once I did, it was the same as any other tamper. For me,
there doesn't seem to be a difference.
--Derek
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 6:07 PM, Ryan M. Ward
wrote:
<Snip>
Every path but your own is the path of fate.  --Thoreau
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20) From: Alex Fitch
Thank you all for the input and information. I would say that you have all confirmed what I have heard and will be investing in one this week. Depending on how it goes you may hear more from me on this thread in the near future. If i get too many spritzes i am sure my wife will force the learning curve to preserve the kitchen. 
Thanks again everyone!
Alex
--------------------------------
Alex Fitch
Alex
On May 3, 2010, at 11:38 AM, Joseph Robertson wrote:
<Snip>
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21) From: Edward Bourgeois
The bottomless will definitely help with distribution technique out of
the grinder. You'll see what zone runs quicker or slower.
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Alex Fitch  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Ed Bourgeois aka farmroast
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22) From: raymanowen
"I was wondering if anyone has tried a bottomless porta  filter..."
The bottomless portafilter is a gimmick.  Somehow, espresso drinks managed
to get prepared well enough to gain quite the popular following before my
string (2) of barista-prepared shots convinced me it was a complete waste of
beans and machinery. Neither a bottomless portafilter nor any other magic
will turn bad technique into a good espresso shot.
As supplied, the porta filter handle of my Capresso thingy had some carbon
fiber pieces that come out with the removal of a single torx-head screw.
When I first got the Crapesso, my questions to Hufford about removing the
pieces to make a bottomless pf went unanswered.
With no answers forthcoming from the seller or manufacturer, that's carte
blanche for me to find out on my own, Love it- checking how things work my
own coffee pot. I already cracked the carbon fiber valve body when I
followed the cleaner's directions. Ready to put some radiator Stop-Leak in
it - almost. The Duesenberg hose clamp worked.
The output of the 55 watt pump had an apparent pressure relief valve on it-
looked exactly like one, with the relief flow plumbed to the reservoir tank.
No functional relief valve on the new "rebuilt" one either.
Bottomless porta filters are built-in to Crapessos. You can't thoroughly
clean it unless you make it so, anyway- four complete surfaces in the pf
could only be lightly rinsed before removal of the extra pieces.  P.poor
performance for the clean freak that likes to see crystal clear water on a
blank flush.
Save your money on the blank portafilter. Spend Wampum on a better grinder,
whatever you have now.
miKe's right- if you already have a fire hydrant-sized grinder, replace the
burrs unless you absolutely know they're almost new.  With only 400# use
since new, my burrs felt wicked sharp to the touch.  *$ probably ground a
lot more in the ten years on the previous burr maintenance tag. New burrs
made an amazing difference after my mild home use.
Cheers, Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa!
Got Grinder?
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23) From: Andy Thomas
Ray, Are you confusing a bottomless pf with a blank pf ? or with a pressu=
rized or nonpressurized one? Anyway, you got "Neither a bottomless port=
afilter nor any other magic will turn bad technique into a good espresso sh=
ot." right. But that is pretty much what everone else said too.
From: "raymanowen" 
To: "A list to discuss home coffee roasting. There are rules for this list,=
 available athttp://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html"
Sent: Mon, May 3, 2010 10:43:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Bottomless Portafilter
"I was wondering if anyone has tried a bottomless porta  filter..."
The bottomless portafilter is a gimmick.  Somehow, espresso drinks managed
to get prepared well enough to gain quite the popular following before my
string (2) of barista-prepared shots convinced me it was a complete waste of
beans and machinery. Neither a bottomless portafilter nor any other magic
will turn bad technique into a good espresso shot.
As supplied, the porta filter handle of my Capresso thingy had some carbon
fiber pieces that come out with the removal of a single torx-head screw.
When I first got the Crapesso, my questions to Hufford about removing the
pieces to make a bottomless pf went unanswered.
With no answers forthcoming from the seller or manufacturer, that's carte
blanche for me to find out on my own, Love it- checking how things work my
own coffee pot. I already cracked the carbon fiber valve body when I
followed the cleaner's directions. Ready to put some radiator Stop-Leak in
it - almost. The Duesenberg hose clamp worked.
The output of the 55 watt pump had an apparent pressure relief valve on it-
looked exactly like one, with the relief flow plumbed to the reservoir tank.
No functional relief valve on the new "rebuilt" one either.
Bottomless porta filters are built-in to Crapessos. You can't thoroughly
clean it unless you make it so, anyway- four complete surfaces in the pf
could only be lightly rinsed before removal of the extra pieces.  P.poor
performance for the clean freak that likes to see crystal clear water on a
blank flush.
Save your money on the blank portafilter. Spend Wampum on a better grinder,
whatever you have now.
miKe's right- if you already have a fire hydrant-sized grinder, replace the
burrs unless you absolutely know they're almost new.  With only 400# use
since new, my burrs felt wicked sharp to the touch.  *$ probably ground a
lot more in the ten years on the previous burr maintenance tag. New burrs
made an amazing difference after my mild home use.
Cheers, Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa!
Got Grinder?
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      =
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24) From: Samuel Goldberger
What Andy said. The primary purpose of the BPF (bottomless portafilter) is as a training tool, either for oneself, or for a barista, to verify that distribution, tamping and grind are correct. There are a number of videos on YouTube that illustrate this very well indeed. 
In a similar fashion, at Four Barrels in San Francisco, when you order a single origin shot at the side bar, the barista uses a BPF as a means of demonstrating to the customer that he/she is getting an optimal shot. Quite convincing.
What I learned in using a BPF with my Mazzer and La Cimbali Jr. is that once you've calibrated your technique reasonably well, you no longer need it, as you can get a pretty accurate sense of the shot quality by observing the stream of coffee as it emerges from a conventional portafilter. Since BPF's are quite expensive ($70-90 for a serious machine)--whether you purchase one outright or make one by sawing off the bottom of your spare as I did--I'm not entirely convinced that they are critical to the learning process. One might do just as well by inviting someone over to help you calibrate your technique, or simply by practice. 
But it certainly is fun and revealing. And it ain't no gimmick.
 
---
Samuel Goldberger, Ph.D.
On May 3, 2010, at 11:07 PM, Andy Thomas wrote:
<Snip>
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25) From: Sandy Andina
And without those pesky spouts and threads, which have a penchant for building up gunk only Cafiza-soaked pipe-cleaners can conquer, naked PF's are a snap to clean.
On May 4, 2010, at 1:44 AM, Samuel Goldberger wrote:
<Snip>
Peace & song, 
Sandy 
www.sandyandina.com
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26) From: sci
I will echo and amen that. I have never had to soak my naked PF in anything.
A quick rinse under the super heated water coming out of my HX boiler keeps
the PF clean as a whistle for every shot. And we all know that in all things
coffee, cleanliness is next to godliness.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 01:58:40 -0500
From: Sandy Andina 
To: "A list to discuss home coffee roasting. There are rules for this
       list,   available athttp://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html"       
Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Bottomless Portafilter
Message-ID: <96991525-AB81-4AB9-BD90-95FBF61E5A34>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=us-ascii
And without those pesky spouts and threads, which have a penchant for
building up gunk only Cafiza-soaked pipe-cleaners can conquer, naked PF's
are a snap to clean.
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27) From: Martin Maney
On Tue, May 04, 2010 at 08:48:29PM -0400, sci wrote:
<Snip>
I hate to have to disagree, but according to the tenets of the Church
of the Green Bean, as they have been revealed to us so far, cleanliness
*is* godliness.
-- 
Neither can his mind be in tune, whose words do jarre,
nor his reason in frame, whose sentence is preposterous.  -- Ben Jonson
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28) From: Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
What Andy and Samuel and most everyone else said too. Naked is 
actually a great term, being that it strips off the disguise of the 
spouts that might make one thing "oh, i am making a great shot" and 
shows you what you are really doing. It is frustrating too, 
especially if you are like me and prefer lighter roasts for espresso 
than the typical kind. Dialing in espresso is hard and with all the 
variables of roasting as well, it's quite a challenge. I was talking 
to a barista at the SO brew bar at Four Barrel and even on a nice 
Marzocco and tons of experience, managing these variables is not 
easy. But the bottomless PF gives you the best feedback on your 
technique. I rarely toss a shot, unless it is really, really bad. I 
learn from tasting all of them, and every so often I really nail it...
Tom
<Snip>
-- 
-Tom
"Great coffee comes from little roasters" - Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting
               Thompson & Maria -http://www.sweetmarias.com     Sweet Maria's Coffee - 1115 21st Street, Oakland, CA 94607 - USA
             phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - info_at_sweetmarias.com
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29) From: miKe mcKoffee
Yeah, keeping multiple SO espresso's dialed in can be a challenge! Currently
in addition to Delirium running Kenya Kirinyaga (just switched from Ethiopia
Haile Selasse), Monsooned Malabar (seriously, Vienna roasted killer caramel
chocolate shots at 208.5, 35sec loose ristretto ~1.5oz - with just a wee bit
of goodly MonMal Funk:), and bag just in last Monday Nicaragua Limoncillo
JavaNic. Was running the JavaNic a wee bit darker slower profile roast
targeted for espresso later part of the week. While I was roasting Bryan was
dialing in Nicaragua Limincillo JavaNic switched to the lighter quicker
"non-espresso" roast for the first time. Now, I hadn't roasted it targeted
specifically for espresso, City+ and not a slower "taming" profile, but that
doesn't matter! First pull ran way fast (like 17sec) but instead of
immediately dumping he bit the bullet, tasted it (standing over the sink),
and immediately spit it out and grimmaced. Simultaneously cranked the grind
down, dose up to ~18.5g (from ~16), and temp up from 200.5 to 202.5. Two
shots later he declared PBJ, cherry PBJ! This was about 30sec pull (after
pre-infusion), 202.7f, 1.5 volume.
Flash forward 4 hours into mid afternoon. Now typically most afternoons need
grinds tightened at the Roastery Coffeehouse. Been roasting, weighing,
bagging etc for hours and decide time for a shot. I go to pull a JavaNic
shot and think, hmmm should adjust the grind but don't. Few seconds in I
know it's gonna be fast. I let the volume go all the way out to 2oz (ACF
ristretto demi filled) even though blonding, killed at 24sec after
pre-infusion. Hmmm, anticpated a bitterish shot. But BAM! Creamy limeade
shot! I mean DAMN, smoothly slightly sweet lightly limeade espresso. Not
just a hint, or a short hit of lime, but a soft limeade dance throughout the
shot. The faster pull really elevated the Nic' citrus character while still
maintaining some of the JavaNic varietal syrupy body. Being an acid head I
just realized that was my first GodShot in a hell of a long long time.
Lifetime #8 IIRC. Go figure, a shot I thought was gonna be a sinker turns
out to open the coffee heavens. Oh, and no channeling:) FWIW not ground with
one of the Majors but a SJ. 
Now heaven help me trying to replicate that shot! I did pull a couple
similar "looking" shots for customers shortly after, but only smelled the
shots so can't be 100% sure. Should have asked if they minded if I dipped a
demi-spoon in for QC but didn't think of it at the time. 
miKe
<Snip>
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30) From: raymanowen
Sure is a great learning tool for this trainee. The Carpeso really had what
appeared to be a pressurized pf handle.  There is no back pressure generated
in the carbon fiber pieces that are easily removed.  Take out 1 Torx screw,
the CF pieces fall out, and what's left is a completely open aluminum
bayonet that locks the 15mm filter basket with 3 tabs instead of 2.
It's just pretend, just like the apparent OPV that doesn't relieve pressure
on the pump and valve body in the new rebuilt Crapesso any more than the
original Luxe did.  Maybe it's supposed to be used with LaVazzatory
coffee...
This Ethiopia Dry-Process Sidamo decaf IS absolutely fabulous, but it's odd
in that my normal starting point for a new roast is an actual 20 spacing of
the burrs on the Major. A little too small to start on this FC roast, but I
haven't opened it up fast enough.  Keeps trying to stall.
Nuts! I'm going to do a 25 right now- was at 23 already. Have never gone
that wide before for espresso  Stand By...
As Victor Borge used to say- "*Oh, God!*" There's grind aroma, taste and
body here- Oh, how buttery smooth, not the finger nails grating-on-slate
explosive brightness of the earliest shots.  This is decaf?  Pferdescheiß=
e!
Who'd-a-thunkit? And I only got a Fiver, dammit.
Carlos better get over here quick, or he's going to have to wait for my next
roast. OK- first thing, I'll use some of the Costa Rica/ Moki's Farm/
Bolivia Caranavi "blend" in my tailings jar.
Yes, more rest is mo betta, along with the dist. H2O.  I cut a rubber inner
tube gasket to seal the bottom of my unused single filter basket. Just don't
run it long enough to break stuff.  Things they don't tell you in the
manual- learning the hard way like Dad always said.
Cheers, Mabuhay, Iechyd da -RayO, aka Opa!
Caveat emptor
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31) From: raymanowen
Hmmm-
"...according to the tenets of the Church of the Green Bean, as they have
been revealed to [*$]"
Didn't I see Starbucks sitting there in the rong pew?  They got all confused
when somebody said they had to make "a restful odor" (36 X in Numbers)
No Points when the Heavenly Army has to run out and reset a myriad of smoke
detectors each time they roast! -ro
-- Nearly the persistent vegetable - Close enough...
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32) From: Martin Maney
On Wed, May 05, 2010 at 02:36:27AM -0600, raymanowen wrote:
<Snip>
"restful odor"?  Nah, when I roast I get what I'd call a "joyful odor"!
-- 
You arguably have quite a few inalienable rights,
but being taken seriously isn't one of them.
Neither is being respected.  -- Rick Moen
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33) From: denis bordeleau
Hi everybody,      I make espresso  with a Rancilio Silvia non-pid =
machine (3.5 inches from the tips of the regular double PF (portafilter) to=
 the drip grate).  I also have a cheaper Cuisinart thermobloc, pressurize=
d portafilter machine with a 4 inches space between PF double tips end and =
drip grate, perfect for large coffee mug.  With the Miss Silvia machine, =
the 2-oz  demitasse porcelain espresso cups I use are 2.25 inches tall so=
 that leaves 1.25 inches of exposed coffee in a room at about 72°F or les=
s if air conditioning is on.   Furthermore, by removing the bottom of a 5=
8mm portafilter you will now expose a surface of 4.18 square inches to the =
ambient air temperature and add another 1.25 inches to the exposed column o=
f liquid to make it 2.5 inches to the rim of the espresso cup.    In th=
is list we discuss about PID (proportional-integral-derivative) controller,=
 about heated group, tamping,  water pressure and temperature at a two
 decimals precision, about thermocouple, software, molecules and whatsoever=
  to be sure we are getting the best cup as often as possible by eliminat=
ing unnecessary variants ( Think about  Mr Seth Grandeau who was using hi=
s Behmor roaster on the stove top while he put the stove on automatic clean=
 cycle). I certainly would not put my hand on it but we all had special tri=
cks to roast coffee in the winter, in the summer, in the garage in high alt=
itude, etc.. and I skip all our particular  cooling methods.  All of us=
 where thinking about very strange and complicated causes and solutions. =
            We used to discuss about voltage, amperage, Variacs=
, etc... and suddenly,  2.5 inches before the final result, we  are wil=
ling to cut a 2.29 inches diameter hole in the whole growing, processing, c=
hoosing, roasting, resting process just seconds prior to get the final resu=
lt only to award us the title of roaster-barista or is it voyeurism or vani=
ty  to
 impress others because it looks cool.  Cool indeed, if you dare make the=
 test of measuring the temperature and the volume of your liquid coffee in =
the cup with a bottomless naked portafilter and a standard one (if somebody=
 has still one left.                   Remember that in a=
 way to make freeze dried instant coffee you only have to lower the tempera=
ture and increase the height of the exposed column of coffee.   It is not=
 what we want, so let's keep it simple gentlemen.    Naked Portafilter =
are great tools to learn, to correct , to evaluate our skills and technique=
 but they have their limits and I do not think they have advantages on the =
regular one on a day-to-day basis for anybody who thinks he mastered his ar=
t.            Have a good day.      Denis
 P.S.:Keep piercing, cutting, brazing and watch your hands fom dangerous =
edges.   Have a grinder?
--- En date de : Mar, 4.5.10, Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee  a écrit :
De : Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee 
Objet : Re: [Homeroast] Bottomless Portafilter
À : "A list to discuss home coffee roasting. There are rules for this  =
list, available athttp://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html"
Date: mardi 4 mai 2010 21 h 34
What Andy and Samuel and most everyone else said too. Naked is actually a g=
reat term, being that it strips off the disguise of the spouts that might m=
ake one thing "oh, i am making a great shot" and shows you what you are rea=
lly doing. It is frustrating too, especially if you are like me and prefer =
lighter roasts for espresso than the typical kind. Dialing in espresso is h=
ard and with all the variables of roasting as well, it's quite a challenge.=
 I was talking to a barista at the SO brew bar at Four Barrel and even on a=
 nice Marzocco and tons of experience, managing these variables is not easy=
. But the bottomless PF gives you the best feedback on your technique. I ra=
rely toss a shot, unless it is really, really bad. I learn from tasting all=
 of them, and every so often I really nail it...
Tom
<Snip>
s as a training tool, either for oneself, or for a barista, to verify that =
distribution, tamping and grind are correct. There are a number of videos o=
n YouTube that illustrate this very well indeed.
<Snip>
<Snip>
single origin shot at the side bar, the barista uses a BPF as a means of de=
monstrating to the customer that he/she is getting an optimal shot. Quite c=
onvincing.
<Snip>
<Snip>
nce you've calibrated your technique reasonably well, you no longer need it=
, as you can get a pretty accurate sense of the shot quality by observing t=
he stream of coffee as it emerges from a conventional portafilter. Since BP=
F's are quite expensive ($70-90 for a serious machine)--whether you purchas=
e one outright or make one by sawing off the bottom of your spare as I did-=
-I'm not entirely convinced that they are critical to the learning process.=
 One might do just as well by inviting someone over to help you calibrate y=
our technique, or simply by practice.
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
essurized or nonpressurized one? Anyway, you got "Neither a bottomless port=
afilter nor any other magic will turn bad technique into a good espresso sh=
ot." right. But that is pretty much what everone else said too.
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
 list, available athttp://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html"
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
managed
<Snip>
e my
<Snip>
aste of
<Snip>
agic
<Snip>
<Snip>
arbon
<Snip>
ew.
<Snip>
 the
<Snip>
<Snip>
arte
<Snip>
rk my
<Snip>
ak in
<Snip>
<Snip>
on it-
<Snip>
r tank.
<Snip>
<Snip>
hly
<Snip>
 pf
<Snip>
.poor
<Snip>
 on a
<Snip>
<Snip>
inder,
<Snip>
<Snip>
ce the
<Snip>
# use
<Snip>
ound a
<Snip>
urrs
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
mariascoffee.com
<Snip>
coffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
mariascoffee.com
<Snip>
coffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
ariascoffee.com
<Snip>
ee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
-- -Tom
"Great coffee comes from little roasters" - Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roast=
ing
              Thompson & Maria -http://www.sweetmarias.com    Sweet Maria's Coffee - 1115 21st Street, Oakland, CA 94607 - USA
            phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - info_at_sweetmarias.com
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmar=iascoffee.com
Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
Homeroast mailing list
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Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820

34) From: Rich
I eagerly await the responses to this. ;-)
denis bordeleau wrote:
<Snip>
e (3.5 inches from the tips of the regular double PF (portafilter) to the d=
rip grate).  I also have a cheaper Cuisinart thermobloc, pressurized portaf=
ilter machine with a 4 inches space between PF double tips end and drip gra=
te, perfect for large coffee mug.  With the Miss Silvia machine, the 2-oz  =
demitasse porcelain espresso cups I use are 2.25 inches tall so that leaves=
 1.25 inches of exposed coffee in a room at about 72°F or less if air con=
ditioning is on.   Furthermore, by removing the bottom of a 58mm portafilte=
r you will now expose a surface of 4.18 square inches to the ambient air te=
mperature and add another 1.25 inches to the exposed column of liquid to ma=
ke it 2.5 inches to the rim of the espresso cup.    In this list we discuss=
 about PID (proportional-integral-derivative) controller, about heated grou=
p, tamping,  water pressure and temperature at a two
<Snip>
er  to be sure we are getting the best cup as often as possible by eliminat=
ing unnecessary variants ( Think about  Mr Seth Grandeau who was using his =
Behmor roaster on the stove top while he put the stove on automatic clean c=
ycle). I certainly would not put my hand on it but we all had special trick=
s to roast coffee in the winter, in the summer, in the garage in high altit=
ude, etc.. and I skip all our particular  cooling methods.  All of us where=
 thinking about very strange and complicated causes and solutions.         =
    We used to discuss about voltage, amperage, Variacs, etc... and suddenl=
y,  2.5 inches before the final result, we  are willing to cut a 2.29 inche=
s diameter hole in the whole growing, processing, choosing, roasting, resti=
ng process just seconds prior to get the final result only to award us the =
title of roaster-barista or is it voyeurism or vanity  to
<Snip>
 test of measuring the temperature and the volume of your liquid coffee in =
the cup with a bottomless naked portafilter and a standard one (if somebody=
 has still one left.                   Remember that in a way to make freez=
e dried instant coffee you only have to lower the temperature and increase =
the height of the exposed column of coffee.   It is not what we want, so le=
t's keep it simple gentlemen.    Naked Portafilter are great tools to learn=
, to correct , to evaluate our skills and technique but they have their lim=
its and I do not think they have advantages on the regular one on a day-to-=
day basis for anybody who thinks he mastered his art.            Have a goo=
d day.      Denis
<Snip>
edges.   Have a grinder?
<Snip>
rias> a écrit :
<Snip>
<Snip>
list, available athttp://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html"
<Snip>
<Snip>
 great term, being that it strips off the disguise of the spouts that might=
 make one thing "oh, i am making a great shot" and shows you what you are r=
eally doing. It is frustrating too, especially if you are like me and prefe=
r lighter roasts for espresso than the typical kind. Dialing in espresso is=
 hard and with all the variables of roasting as well, it's quite a challeng=
e. I was talking to a barista at the SO brew bar at Four Barrel and even on=
 a nice Marzocco and tons of experience, managing these variables is not ea=
sy. But the bottomless PF gives you the best feedback on your technique. I =
rarely toss a shot, unless it is really, really bad. I learn from tasting a=
ll of them, and every so often I really nail it...
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
is as a training tool, either for oneself, or for a barista, to verify that=
 distribution, tamping and grind are correct. There are a number of videos =
on YouTube that illustrate this very well indeed.
<Snip>
 single origin shot at the side bar, the barista uses a BPF as a means of d=
emonstrating to the customer that he/she is getting an optimal shot. Quite =
convincing.
<Snip>
once you've calibrated your technique reasonably well, you no longer need i=
t, as you can get a pretty accurate sense of the shot quality by observing =
the stream of coffee as it emerges from a conventional portafilter. Since B=
PF's are quite expensive ($70-90 for a serious machine)--whether you purcha=
se one outright or make one by sawing off the bottom of your spare as I did=
--I'm not entirely convinced that they are critical to the learning process=
. One might do just as well by inviting someone over to help you calibrate =
your technique, or simply by practice.
<Snip>
essurized or nonpressurized one? Anyway, you got "Neither a bottomless port=
afilter nor any other magic will turn bad technique into a good espresso sh=
ot." right. But that is pretty much what everone else said too.
<Snip>
 list, available athttp://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html"
<Snip>
naged
<Snip>
e my
<Snip>
aste of
<Snip>
agic
<Snip>
arbon
<Snip>
ew.
<Snip>
 the
<Snip>
arte
<Snip>
rk my
<Snip>
ak in
<Snip>
on it-
<Snip>
r tank.
<Snip>
hly
<Snip>
 pf
<Snip>
oor
<Snip>
 on a
<Snip>
inder,
<Snip>
ce the
<Snip>
use
<Snip>
nd a
<Snip>
urrs
<Snip>
tmariascoffee.com
<Snip>
coffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
<Snip>
tmariascoffee.com
<Snip>
coffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
<Snip>
mariascoffee.com
<Snip>
fee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
sting
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
ariascoffee.com
<Snip>
ee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
ariascoffee.com
<Snip>
ee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
<Snip>
<Snip>
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35) From: miKe mcKoffee
Not worth the energy repeating what's been discussed many times many
venues...to each their own.
Though I will say if the demitasse is TOO far away from the PF for your
liking, gee, raise the PF!
miKe
<Snip>
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36) From: Allon Stern
On Aug 28, 2010, at 7:32 PM, miKe mcKoffee wrote:
<Snip>
I disagree. I will say that Denis' whole argument rests on the assertion that the coffee cools as it drips out of the portafilter.
I say "who cares?" The extraction has been done. The whole point of hot coffee is not that it is hot to the lips, but that it is properly extracted. Cup temperature is irrelevant, except to the sensory experience as the cup cools, maybe, but you go ahead and try drinking 200 degree coffee without any cooling. Go ahead. Enjoy your scarred taste buds, savor the numbing lack of flavor on your second, third, and fourth sips, even after it has cooled below the pain threshold.
Your argument states that a naked PF has limits and acknowledges that they're great tools for learning, correcting, and evaluating your technique, but once you've reached perfection, you don't need them anymore.
I want to know what limits you assert they have - other than effect on temperature. (and why running the espresso through a metal trough with lots of surface area won't cool it, I don't know. I'm sure the spout is the coolest part of the PF because it acts like a heat sink, flapping in the breezy air below the portafilter).
They allow for cleaning the PF much more easily.
Sure, they are showy, but a naked pull can show the mark of quality. I'd rather buy a $4 or even $5 espresso from a barista who uses a naked PF and might sink a bad shot before delivering a cup of guaranteed nirvana than a barista who uses a regular PF and gives you whatever he pulls for $2.
-
allon
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37) From: Dennis Parham
Well Denis with one n ... lol I brought up this question because I wanted t=
o know if anyone else had done any research on if it has any difference.. I=
 have been also doing this and worrying with espresso for many years includ=
ing on PIDing a Silvia 8 years ago also cutting out bottom.. There is a dif=
ference to me in taste.. I get a smoother more aromatic cup.. Possibly beca=
use I pay more attention to detail since now I can see it.. or... the resti=
ng process after one pulls a shot to bring it to drinkable temps is already=
 performed in the removal of bottom.. or just the change in molecular adhes=
ion that  tesla talked about in his blades turbine.. but hey were talking a=
bout espresso! lol anyway.. I decided to put a gauge on it and noticed the =
obvious... no bottom means cooler thermal temps on bottom but.. has anyone =
done any research or discussion on wether they too noticed a taste differen=
ce and attributed it to similar findings... I love my bottomless portafilte=
rs and I like as  little deflections from grind to taste buds as possible..=
. accept putting head under portafilter and pulling shot in my mouth... hav=
en't tried that yet! but hey! theres always a first! lol
Dennis Parham
On Aug 28, 2010, at 2:01 PM, denis bordeleau wrote:
<Snip>
e (3.5 inches from the tips of the regular double PF (portafilter) to the d=
rip grate).  I also have a cheaper Cuisinart thermobloc, pressurized portaf=
ilter machine with a 4 inches space between PF double tips end and drip gra=
te, perfect for large coffee mug.  With the Miss Silvia machine, the 2-oz  =
demitasse porcelain espresso cups I use are 2.25 inches tall so that leaves=
 1.25 inches of exposed coffee in a room at about 72°F or less if air con=
ditioning is on.   Furthermore, by removing the bottom of a 58mm portafilte=
r you will now expose a surface of 4.18 square inches to the ambient air te=
mperature and add another 1.25 inches to the exposed column of liquid to ma=
ke it 2.5 inches to the rim of the espresso cup.    In this list we discuss=
 about PID (proportional-integral-derivative) controller, about heated grou=
p, tamping,  water pressure and temperature at a two
<Snip>
r  to be sure we are getting the best cup as often as possible by eliminati=
ng unnecessary variants ( Think about  Mr Seth Grandeau who was using his B=
ehmor roaster on the stove top while he put the stove on automatic clean cy=
cle). I certainly would not put my hand on it but we all had special tricks=
 to roast coffee in the winter, in the summer, in the garage in high altitu=
de, etc.. and I skip all our particular  cooling methods.  All of us where =
thinking about very strange and complicated causes and solutions.          =
   We used to discuss about voltage, amperage, Variacs, etc... and suddenly=
,  2.5 inches before the final result, we  are willing to cut a 2.29 inches=
 diameter hole in the whole growing, processing, choosing, roasting, restin=
g process just seconds prior to get the final result only to award us the t=
itle of roaster-barista or is it voyeurism or vanity  to
<Snip>
test of measuring the temperature and the volume of your liquid coffee in t=
he cup with a bottomless naked portafilter and a standard one (if somebody =
has still one left.                   Remember that in a way to make freeze=
 dried instant coffee you only have to lower the temperature and increase t=
he height of the exposed column of coffee.   It is not what we want, so let=
's keep it simple gentlemen.    Naked Portafilter are great tools to learn,=
 to correct , to evaluate our skills and technique but they have their limi=
ts and I do not think they have advantages on the regular one on a day-to-d=
ay basis for anybody who thinks he mastered his art.            Have a good=
 day.      Denis
<Snip>
edges.   Have a grinder?
<Snip>
rias> a écrit :
<Snip>
<Snip>
list, available athttp://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html"
<Snip>
<Snip>
 great term, being that it strips off the disguise of the spouts that might=
 make one thing "oh, i am making a great shot" and shows you what you are r=
eally doing. It is frustrating too, especially if you are like me and prefe=
r lighter roasts for espresso than the typical kind. Dialing in espresso is=
 hard and with all the variables of roasting as well, it's quite a challeng=
e. I was talking to a barista at the SO brew bar at Four Barrel and even on=
 a nice Marzocco and tons of experience, managing these variables is not ea=
sy. But the bottomless PF gives you the best feedback on your technique. I =
rarely toss a shot, unless it is really, really bad. I learn from tasting a=
ll of them, and every so often I really nail it...
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
is as a training tool, either for oneself, or for a barista, to verify that=
 distribution, tamping and grind are correct. There are a number of videos =
on YouTube that illustrate this very well indeed.
<Snip>
<Snip>
 single origin shot at the side bar, the barista uses a BPF as a means of d=
emonstrating to the customer that he/she is getting an optimal shot. Quite =
convincing.
<Snip>
<Snip>
once you've calibrated your technique reasonably well, you no longer need i=
t, as you can get a pretty accurate sense of the shot quality by observing =
the stream of coffee as it emerges from a conventional portafilter. Since B=
PF's are quite expensive ($70-90 for a serious machine)--whether you purcha=
se one outright or make one by sawing off the bottom of your spare as I did=
--I'm not entirely convinced that they are critical to the learning process=
. One might do just as well by inviting someone over to help you calibrate =
your technique, or simply by practice.
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
essurized or nonpressurized one? Anyway, you got "Neither a bottomless port=
afilter nor any other magic will turn bad technique into a good espresso sh=
ot." right. But that is pretty much what everone else said too.
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
 list, available athttp://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html"
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
naged
<Snip>
e my
<Snip>
aste of
<Snip>
agic
<Snip>
<Snip>
arbon
<Snip>
ew.
<Snip>
 the
<Snip>
<Snip>
arte
<Snip>
rk my
<Snip>
ak in
<Snip>
<Snip>
on it-
<Snip>
r tank.
<Snip>
<Snip>
hly
<Snip>
 pf
<Snip>
oor
<Snip>
 on a
<Snip>
<Snip>
inder,
<Snip>
<Snip>
ce the
<Snip>
use
<Snip>
nd a
<Snip>
urrs
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
tmariascoffee.com
<Snip>
coffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
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<Snip>
coffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
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<Snip>
fee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
sting
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
ariascoffee.com
<Snip>
ee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
ariascoffee.com
<Snip>
ee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmar=iascoffee.com
Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820

38) From: Dennis Parham
oops... WORKING with espresso! hahah not WORRYING! lol I hate spell correct=
ors! DOH! lol thats what I get for not proof reading! lol
D
On Aug 29, 2010, at 2:08 PM, Dennis Parham wrote:
<Snip>
 to know if anyone else had done any research on if it has any difference..=
 I have been also doing this and (WORKING) with espresso for many years inc=
luding on PIDing a Silvia 8 years ago also cutting out bottom.. There is a =
difference to me in taste.. I get a smoother more aromatic cup.. Possibly b=
ecause I pay more attention to detail since now I can see it.. or... the re=
sting process after one pulls a shot to bring it to drinkable temps is alre=
ady performed in the removal of bottom.. or just the change in molecular ad=
hesion that  tesla talked about in his blades turbine.. but hey were talkin=
g about espresso! lol anyway.. I decided to put a gauge on it and noticed t=
he obvious... no bottom means cooler thermal temps on bottom but.. has anyo=
ne done any research or discussion on wether they too noticed a taste diffe=
rence and attributed it to similar findings... I love my bottomless portafi=
lters and I like as  little deflections from grind to taste buds as possibl=
e... accept putting head under portafilter and pulling shot in my mouth... =
haven't tried that yet! but hey! theres always a first! lol
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
ne (3.5 inches from the tips of the regular double PF (portafilter) to the =
drip grate).  I also have a cheaper Cuisinart thermobloc, pressurized porta=
filter machine with a 4 inches space between PF double tips end and drip gr=
ate, perfect for large coffee mug.  With the Miss Silvia machine, the 2-oz =
 demitasse porcelain espresso cups I use are 2.25 inches tall so that leave=
s 1.25 inches of exposed coffee in a room at about 72°F or less if air co=
nditioning is on.   Furthermore, by removing the bottom of a 58mm portafilt=
er you will now expose a surface of 4.18 square inches to the ambient air t=
emperature and add another 1.25 inches to the exposed column of liquid to m=
ake it 2.5 inches to the rim of the espresso cup.    In this list we discus=
s about PID (proportional-integral-derivative) controller, about heated gro=
up, tamping,  water pressure and temperature at a two
<Snip>
er  to be sure we are getting the best cup as often as possible by eliminat=
ing unnecessary variants ( Think about  Mr Seth Grandeau who was using his =
Behmor roaster on the stove top while he put the stove on automatic clean c=
ycle). I certainly would not put my hand on it but we all had special trick=
s to roast coffee in the winter, in the summer, in the garage in high altit=
ude, etc.. and I skip all our particular  cooling methods.  All of us where=
 thinking about very strange and complicated causes and solutions.         =
    We used to discuss about voltage, amperage, Variacs, etc... and suddenl=
y,  2.5 inches before the final result, we  are willing to cut a 2.29 inche=
s diameter hole in the whole growing, processing, choosing, roasting, resti=
ng process just seconds prior to get the final result only to award us the =
title of roaster-barista or is it voyeurism or vanity  to
<Snip>
 test of measuring the temperature and the volume of your liquid coffee in =
the cup with a bottomless naked portafilter and a standard one (if somebody=
 has still one left.                   Remember that in a way to make freez=
e dried instant coffee you only have to lower the temperature and increase =
the height of the exposed column of coffee.   It is not what we want, so le=
t's keep it simple gentlemen.    Naked Portafilter are great tools to learn=
, to correct , to evaluate our skills and technique but they have their lim=
its and I do not think they have advantages on the regular one on a day-to-=
day basis for anybody who thinks he mastered his art.            Have a goo=
d day.      Denis
<Snip>
edges.   Have a grinder?
<Snip>
arias> a écrit :
<Snip>
<Snip>
 list, available athttp://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html"
<Snip>
<Snip>
a great term, being that it strips off the disguise of the spouts that migh=
t make one thing "oh, i am making a great shot" and shows you what you are =
really doing. It is frustrating too, especially if you are like me and pref=
er lighter roasts for espresso than the typical kind. Dialing in espresso i=
s hard and with all the variables of roasting as well, it's quite a challen=
ge. I was talking to a barista at the SO brew bar at Four Barrel and even o=
n a nice Marzocco and tons of experience, managing these variables is not e=
asy. But the bottomless PF gives you the best feedback on your technique. I=
 rarely toss a shot, unless it is really, really bad. I learn from tasting =
all of them, and every so often I really nail it...
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
 is as a training tool, either for oneself, or for a barista, to verify tha=
t distribution, tamping and grind are correct. There are a number of videos=
 on YouTube that illustrate this very well indeed.
<Snip>
<Snip>
a single origin shot at the side bar, the barista uses a BPF as a means of =
demonstrating to the customer that he/she is getting an optimal shot. Quite=
 convincing.
<Snip>
<Snip>
 once you've calibrated your technique reasonably well, you no longer need =
it, as you can get a pretty accurate sense of the shot quality by observing=
 the stream of coffee as it emerges from a conventional portafilter. Since =
BPF's are quite expensive ($70-90 for a serious machine)--whether you purch=
ase one outright or make one by sawing off the bottom of your spare as I di=
d--I'm not entirely convinced that they are critical to the learning proces=
s. One might do just as well by inviting someone over to help you calibrate=
 your technique, or simply by practice.
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
essurized or nonpressurized one? Anyway, you got "Neither a bottomless port=
afilter nor any other magic will turn bad technique into a good espresso sh=
ot." right. But that is pretty much what everone else said too.
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
 list, available athttp://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html"
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
naged
<Snip>
e my
<Snip>
aste of
<Snip>
agic
<Snip>
<Snip>
arbon
<Snip>
ew.
<Snip>
 the
<Snip>
<Snip>
arte
<Snip>
rk my
<Snip>
ak in
<Snip>
<Snip>
on it-
<Snip>
r tank.
<Snip>
<Snip>
hly
<Snip>
 pf
<Snip>
oor
<Snip>
 on a
<Snip>
<Snip>
inder,
<Snip>
<Snip>
ce the
<Snip>
use
<Snip>
nd a
<Snip>
urrs
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
etmariascoffee.com
<Snip>
coffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
etmariascoffee.com
<Snip>
coffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
tmariascoffee.com
<Snip>
ffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
asting
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
mariascoffee.com
<Snip>
fee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
mariascoffee.com
<Snip>
fee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
ariascoffee.com
<Snip>
ee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmar=iascoffee.com
Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820

39) From: Brian Kamnetz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40) From: Dennis Parham
ok well that too then! lol we all worry about our espresso but that was a given and didn't have to post that! lol hahaha
Dennis Parham
On Aug 29, 2010, at 2:47 PM, Brian Kamnetz wrote:
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
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