HomeRoast Digest

Topic: 6oz > was Re: +Wonderful 5oz doubles (8 msgs / 482 lines)
1) From: Mike McGinness
Has anyone compared a 6oz versus 5... ONLY KIDDING!!!
Dave, I'm sure your "cheap (pump) espresso machine" beats the heck out of my
old (thankfully retired) Krups steam driven...!
Home Roasting in Vancouver, WA USA
Dedicated to the Art & Science of coffee excellence - learning more and
knowing less each day.
From: "Dave Huddle" 
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2) From: MYR
Yes, sort-of.  We tested various total extraction times, and could taste =
a difference with a 20 sec vs. 25 sec extraction.  These times roughly =
correspond to volumes of 4oz and 6oz on our machine, a Solis 5000 =
digital.   The 25 sec extraction was a little more dilute tasting--not =
smoother, just more dilute.  The 20 sec was very strong, rich, but maybe =
there was a tad more roughness in the brew.  I don't recall exactly, cuz =
we ran these a couple years ago when we first bought our machine.  
Addressing your question about 5oz vs 6oz, we also tested extraction =
times in between 20 and 25, viz, 22 and 24 sec extraction times, which =
would correspond to ~ 5oz volumes, +/- 1/2oz.  The difference btn 22/23 =
sec and 25 are almost imperceptible on our machine.  We chose 23 sec as =
a happy medium to accommodate variations in our roasts.
We did test various stages of the extraction, and found the first 1/3 to =
be very sour, rough, and ukky.  The middle section was more "coffee" =
tasting and pleasant.  The last 1/3 was just watery and dilute, but not =
bitter, just weak as can be.  I never would have believed these could =
combine to result in such a fantastic beverage, but they do.
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3) From: John - wandering Texas
Your Solis 5000 and mine differ GREATLY.  It may be possible that anything
from beans used to power input can be the cause, but my times differ as do
the results.  The 5 ounce and the 6 ounce are both great - but I prefer the
5 ounce because of the volume of crema and the delta in flavor.  I've now
run the 50/50 test on 5 ounce drinks 8 times - with guests helping with the
tasting.  The second half is clearly not bitter.  I've brewed with Costa
Rican La Minita, Kona and Brazilian.  I love Kona but it doesn't fair as
well as the CR.
John - looking for ANY excuse to brew another one

4) From: MYR
Wow, incredible!  Inferring from your posting below, it sounds as if =
your machine actually produces a larger volume of  crema for the 5oz =
than for the 6oz brew?   Amazing.  That certainly could explain the =
large difference in flavor you detect for a 5oz vs 6oz. At these =
volumes, I might expect the encroachment of bitterness to affect the =
flavor, particularly as the extraction time increases, but, we did not =
find this to be the case (previous post).  We divided the brew into ~ =
Your results are really interesting.  For your machine, what were the =
extraction times--excluding the pre-infusion step--corresponding to the =
5oz and 6oz total volumes, respectively.  What were the dose size, grind =
setting, and degree of roast? 
More excuses to brew more coffee(other than Harrar, Kenya Kiungu): =
Yirgacheffe, Aged Sumatra. 
Happy Brewing!

5) From: John - wandering Texas
The extraction for a five ounce shot is 30 seconds, not counting the
preinfusion.  The dose size is automatic and hard to calibrate after being
dumped in the waste bucket (tends to break apart)  The grind is set on 7
(0 - 18 scale).  The Costa Rican was at the beginning of 2nd crack - the
Brazilian FC and the Kona LFC. - and as a confession - I don't think I moved
the grind back on the Kona but am not sure.   I've found that anything that
is smooth brewed in the Cona vacuum pot produces a smooth 5 ounce Crema.
Tell you what - if you ever get to the tip of Texas your welcome to come by
and do the dialing and drink your fill - I love coffee and real coffee

6) From: MYR
30 sec for 5oz.  A 5-5.5oz brew on our machine takes about 23 sec.  That =
is a significant difference...I wonder if Solis changed some of the ID's =
of the plumbing, or something.  (Our digital machine is about 2 yrs =
old.)  7 seconds is a significant extraction time difference.  I'll =
check w/ Solis.
As for the coffee dose size, I've never weighed the spent ground cake =
after brewing--too much water, and as you point out, too difficult to =
measure the mass of a crumbly mess.  I just go by the tick marks on the =
doser dial knob.  The default dose size on most of these machines is =
about 7g.  It's the tick mark dead center between the + and the - marks =
on the knob.  I sometimes adjust this if I mess up a roast a little, or =
if the brew starts tasting bitter, etc.
Can I give you more excuses to brew just a few more cups o cafe creme?  =
I have a few more questions about the 5oz brew from your machine:
(1) Do you observe any tiger striping towards the end of the extraction? =
 What about for the 6oz shot?  
(2) Have you tried to collect the entire 5 or 6oz extraction into 3 =
separate vessels?  What does the last 1/3 look like?  Transparent (but =
not colorless)?  
A new excuse to brew more coffee:  Columbian Mesa de los Santos (FC, =
rested 3 days).  Just bought a new stash of coffee from Tom and Maria, =
so I can comment on some of the newer stocks.  
Happy Brewing!

7) From: John - wandering Texas
OK - I'm game to try it.  I'll have to figure out how to do it in thirds - I
guess I could take the adjustable dispensing head off and take it all in one
stream.  As it sits now I have no problem putting one large cup under the
head for the 5 or 6 ounce.  But to split it into three sections is going to
require some quick hands.  I agree with you that 7g. is the default dose
size - but my 5000 has no dosing adjustment - it is all done automatically -
further my dose selector has 5 more positions than the original (as shown in
the manual).
I just ran a couple of 5 and 6 ounce cups - TADA the last 1/3 of the 6 ounce
has a slight bitterness that isn't at all present in the final 1/3 of the 5
ounce (actually more like final 1/4 - can't judge fast enough).  AND I
discovered in whipping the cups in and out that a cold cup really cuts down
the crema!  The shot gets a lighter and lighter color, but never did see any
striping. And I have found that it takes about 3 shots to completely switch
the beans - so when I'm playing with multiple beans I'm getting a blend in
at least two of them - might account for the "Oh Wow" that disappeared
between the Brazilian and the Kona beans - who'd have thought that would
make a good blend - but it did.
I think I've had enough coffee for awhile - and I love it too much to just
dump it out - even in the interest of science.
John - headed into Mexico in the morning for some shrimp and sailing. Life
is good!

8) From: MYR
Hope you enjoyed the excuses for brewing a ton of coffee! 
(I must admit that enjoying coffee vicariously is alot of fun, esp =
Based on your results, the difference in flavor between the 5 and 6oz is =
due to the slight bitterness of the final 1-2 oz of the 6oz, rather than =
any extra crema production (of the 5 oz vs. 6oz).    That is pretty much =
what I'd expect at these volumes, where the major crema production is =
trailing off, and bitterness is just starting to creep in.  
Other than the extraction times, our results are close, except that our =
final 1/3 of the 6.0oz doesn't have bitterness; just watery tasting.  I =
believe our machines may have different flow rates through the coffee =
cake, but am waiting to hear back from Solis on any recent design =
modifications.  Also, I emphasize that our volumes are +/- 1/2oz, at =
times...and I think that's a reasonable tolerance for any machine geared =
towards home use.  Our machine has a leaky boiler gasket (very very =
slow, small leak), which may account for some of the variance in =
volumes.  I'll do a few more expts once the gasket is replaced and see =
if our total volumes change.  I don't expect the flavor to change much, =
since we're in the ballpark of where this machine is tuned.
As for the dosing dial, we pretty much keep ours at the default "tick" =
mark, which ostensibly corresponds to 7.0grams.  If I mess up a roast =
and get it too dark, I either adjust the grind or the dose.  Since, as =
you've discovered, it takes about 3 cups of coffee to actually taste the =
flavor of the new variety, I am lazy and tend to adjust the dose instead =
of the grind.    I didn't realize the 5000 digital (my machine) and the =
5000 machines had different doser options.  
Also, yes, I know exactly what you mean about drinking a ton of coffee =
when testing new varieties!  What I do is gather at least 3 empty coffee =
cups/variety, brew them one after the other.  I usually test only 3 =
varieties at a time, cuz my tastebuds go dead after a while.  So, for 3 =
varieties, I'll end up w/ 9 cups of coffee.  I'll taste the last in each =
series, and compare.  Then, we usually get together and drink all the =
in-betweeners.  This is often how I discover a blend too, depending on =
the coffees I choose to test. 
Isn't it amazing how the three portions combine to make the most awesome =
ever coffee beverage?  I am still amazed, and it's been almost 3 yrs =
since we've been loving this coffee brewing method.  
Thx for the data.  
P.S. Oh yes, I forgot to mention...I completely removed the splash =
guard, which delivers coffee unevenly anyway.  When I did the "thirds" =
test, I got 3 pyrex 1cup measuring cups all lined up and voila.  Very =
approximate volumes, but gives an idea of the different stages of =
brewing.  The clear glass also allows you to view the clarity of the =
liquid.  Well, yes, I'm getting very nerdy here, so will stop.

HomeRoast Digest