HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Single cup brewers (24 msgs / 754 lines)
1) From: Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
My 2 cents:  the Trifecta  from Bunn is an automated aeropress, and I 
don't think it is the best single serve machine.
There is HUGE money right now on single serve automated equipment at 
all levels, home, office, commerical. Why? Nespresso makes minimum 
$35 per LB retail (actually might be more) on their single serve, 
Keurig is something like 90% of Green Mountains business. The markups 
are GIANT on these portioned products.
I will make this claim though: any manual method made by someone who 
has tasted the result, made an adjustment to their taste, and can 
repeat the steps with reasonable care will, empirically, in blind 
test, produce better coffee than the fanciest single serve brewer, be 
in Nespresso, Clover, Trifecta or whatever. Brewing is a system where 
human input, evaluation and adjustment cannot be adequately 
duplicated.
Tom
PS: changed the subject lines because it pains me to see HS on our 
homeroast list!
<Snip>
-- 
-Tom
"Great coffee comes from little roasters" - Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting
               Thompson & Maria -http://www.sweetmarias.com     Sweet Maria's Coffee - 1115 21st Street, Oakland, CA 94607 - USA
             phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - info_at_sweetmarias.com
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2) From: Rich
But just pouring hot water over a fiber cone containing ground coffee 
and allowing it to drip into a receiving container has absolutely no 
snob appeal nor does it cost thousands of dollars.  This will never do 
as everyone knows that it takes thousands of dollars worth of high tech 
equipment and a special training class to brew excellent coffee.
On 11/01/2010 05:34 PM, Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee wrote:
<Snip>
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3) From: Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
Okay, but how about if it is imported New Zealand water poured 
through a gold filtercone containing ground Kopi Luwak? Wait, that 
won't work...
<Snip>
-- 
-Tom
"Great coffee comes from little roasters" - Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting
               Thompson & Maria -http://www.sweetmarias.com     Sweet Maria's Coffee - 1115 21st Street, Oakland, CA 94607 - USA
             phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - info_at_sweetmarias.com
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4) From: Derek Bradford
So true.  I have a Vivaldi II and I also use an Aeropress.  It's hard to
convince people that sometimes the AP is better for a coffee than the VII.
If for some reason I couldn't have espresso at home anymore, I'd be
reasonably content with an Aeropress (once the initial shock of being
espressoless passed, that is.)
--Derek
On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 8:29 PM, Rich  wrote:
<Snip>
Every path but your own is the path of fate.  --Thoreau
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5) From: Andy Thomas
I disagree about the snob appeal. Often my guests are impressed that I stand 
over the Chemex and pour -- by hand, mind you -- for minutes at a time, until 
the coffee is ready.
From: Rich 
To:"A list to discuss home coffee roasting. There are rules for this list, 
available athttp://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html"
Sent: Mon, November 1, 2010 4:29:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Single cup brewers
But just pouring hot water over a fiber cone containing ground coffee 
and allowing it to drip into a receiving container has absolutely no 
snob appeal nor does it cost thousands of dollars.  This will never do 
as everyone knows that it takes thousands of dollars worth of high tech 
equipment and a special training class to brew excellent coffee.
On 11/01/2010 05:34 PM, Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee wrote:
<Snip>
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6) From: Ira
At 03:34 PM 11/1/2010, you wrote:
<Snip>
But both the Clover and Trifecta allow and encourage this behavior 
while allowing quite repeatable results and an ease of making those 
changes when required.
Ira
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7) From: Hank Perkins
Derek,
With all respect, not me. I gave been on travel for 10 days now with my AP. It makes an acceptable cup but we have gotten good and really bad coffee out. Peregrine Espresso in DC was the best coffee I have ever drank. We stopped at a Whole Foods in Annapolis MD the coffee bar was surprisingly good. The Baltimore Coffee and Tea we stopped at was the worst excuse for coffee I have ever experienced bitter and watery in a Mocha Latte ( normally I drink straight espresso or a machiato). 
Tonight we are in a desolate spot. No real coffee so I pulled out the aero press. It was ok. But I would have loved to walk across the street to Whole Foods or across town to Peregrine. 
I wish my Giotto would fit on the suitcase. 
Thanks,
Hank 
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 1, 2010, at 7:41 PM, Derek Bradford  wrote:
<Snip>
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8) From: miKe mcKoffee
<Snip>
Wrong: weighing your coffee to be ground, weighing your water, heating water
to precise temperature, timing your multiple pours, weighing your brewed
coffee...believe me when I say well executed pour over bars have HUGE
coffeegeek appeal. True, doesn't cost thousands of dollars, just hundreds. 
And we've sold a number of scales recently too. (0.1g resolution with max
1000g, so work great for PF build and pour over) 
Slave to the Bean  miKe mcKoffee
www.CompassCoffeeRoasting.com
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
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9) From: Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
Yes, but the coffee? At the hands of supremely experienced people I 
have had too much mediocre coffee from these machines. I do 
completely agree that in the right environment they "encourage this 
behavior while allowing quite repeatable results and an ease of 
making those changes when required." And I am not judging them from a 
Starbucks installation or such... The move toward manual methods in 
general is something I find heartening, and while I am sure there is 
always another innovation in high tech brewing, you look at the 
variables the Trifecta and Clover take great expense to control, and 
you find that humans can control them quite easily.
Tom
<Snip>
-- 
-Tom
"Great coffee comes from little roasters" - Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting
               Thompson & Maria -http://www.sweetmarias.com     Sweet Maria's Coffee - 1115 21st Street, Oakland, CA 94607 - USA
             phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - info_at_sweetmarias.com
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10) From: John A C Despres
I can tweak my Clever Coffee Dripper brews quite easily and it cost less
than $15,000.00. Oh I mean less than $15.00.
And it's more fun.
John
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11) From: Rich
Coffee brewing is an interactive process. It does not yield itself well 
to automation or a doctrinaire procedural approach.  The worlds great 
chefs do not use Betty Crocker cook books...
On 11/01/2010 07:59 PM, Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee wrote:
<Snip>
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12) From: Martin Maney
On Mon, Nov 01, 2010 at 08:26:50PM -0500, Rich wrote:
<Snip>
Coffee roasting is an interactive process. It does not yield itself
well to automation or a doctrinaire procedural approach.  The worlds
great roasters do not use pre-programmed at the factory profiles...
:-)
-- 
An education that does not teach clear, coherent writing
cannot provide our world with thoughtful adults; it gives us instead,
at the best, clever children of all ages.  -- Richard Mitchell
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13) From: Bryan Wray
I have countless hours in on Clover machines in lab settings, got to play a=
round for probably a collective 3 hours with the Trifecta this past weekend=
 at Coffeefest and rock pour-overs all day long on whatever bar I'd happen =
to be working on that day... and you know what...
V60 all the way.  I don't know of a real barista that actually likes thos=
e stupid machines.  If you put time in, you can get some pretty great cup=
s off of a Clover or a Trifecta, but it's a hellofa lot of work to master o=
ne.
Speaking to the "automation" part:
Ever use a Behmor?  Ever use one of it's profiles?  Ever use a programm=
able Hottop?  Ever use a pump driven espresso machine?  Automation is a=
ll around the home-barista/roaster world.
I know I'm opening a door that I probably shouldn't when I say this but...
Man I love how people that "aren't in the industry" bash everyone that is a=
s if they know exactly what's going on all the time.  Comments referring =
to how people won't clammer behind a product unless it is expensive and aut=
omated just frustrate me.  Know what the most talked about item at Coffee=
fest was this week?  The K-Cone.  But because you aren't in the industr=
y you probably have no idea what it is...  Frustrating indeed.
Venting over.
The main thing I see as a positive with the Trifecta in particular is tempe=
rature stability.  The sealed chamber does quite a bit for it.  You thi=
nk your Clever brews are tasty?  Try doing one where the temperature does=
n't drop 12-16 degrees over the coarse of the 4 minute brewing cycle.  An=
d that's why you don't see them "in the industry."   ;)
... but I still hate the thing.
-bry
Bryan Wray
Compass Coffee
360.831.1480
Bryan
It is my hope that people realize that coffee is more than just a caffeine =
delivery service, it can be a culinary art- Chris Owens
--- On Tue, 11/2/10, Martin Maney  wrote:
From: Martin Maney 
Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Single cup brewers
To: "A list to discuss home coffee roasting. There are rules for this  list=
, available athttp://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html"
Date: Tuesday, November 2, 2010, 5:19 AM
On Mon, Nov 01, 2010 at 08:26:50PM -0500, Rich wrote:
<Snip>
Coffee roasting is an interactive process. It does not yield itself
well to automation or a doctrinaire procedural approach.  The worlds
great roasters do not use pre-programmed at the factory profiles...
:-)
-- =
An education that does not teach clear, coherent writing
cannot provide our world with thoughtful adults; it gives us instead,
at the best, clever children of all ages.  -- Richard Mitchell
Homeroast mailing list
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Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
      =
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14) From: Yakster
I've been anticipating the Kone filter video.  I'm happy with filters but
with a Kone I think I could pour 1200 ml in five minutes instead of nine for
when family visits as I avoid auto-drip makers.  I'm hoping its the drip
machine buster.
How's the taste and sediment in the Kone.
I love my lever espresso too and may some day move on from Behmor to a
Quest, manual can be good, but it does take skill.
The V60 bar at Barefoot or Intelligentsia does move slowly, but that's s
good thing for the coffee.  Hope customers realize this.
-Chris
-Chris
Pecked out on my mobile phone.
On Nov 3, 2010 1:33 AM, "Bryan Wray"  wrote:
<Snip>
around for probably a collective 3 hours with the Trifecta this past weekend
at Coffeefest and rock pour-overs all day long on whatever bar I'd happen to
be working on that day... and you know what...
<Snip>
stupid machines.  If you put time in, you can get some pretty great cups off
of a Clover or a Trifecta, but it's a hellofa lot of work to master one.
<Snip>
programmable Hottop?  Ever use a pump driven espresso machine?  Automation
is all around the home-barista/roaster world.
<Snip>
as if they know exactly what's going on all the time.  Comments referring to
how people won't clammer behind a product unless it is expensive and
automated just frustrate me.  Know what the most talked about item at
Coffeefest was this week?  The K-Cone.  But because you aren't in the
industry you probably have no idea what it is...  Frustrating indeed.
<Snip>
temperature stability.  The sealed chamber does quite a bit for it.  You
think your Clever brews are tasty?  Try doing one where the temperature
doesn't drop 12-16 degrees over the coarse of the 4 minute brewing cycle.
 And that's why you don't see them "in the industry."   ;)
<Snip>
delivery service, it can be a culinary art- Chris Owens
<Snip>
list, available athttp://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html"<
homeroast>
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15) From: Tom Ulmer
Technology is sexy but automation is a business all in itself. I've been
curious with the business of machines like the Clover and the Trifecta from
a coffee shop perspective. Does this type of machine add value to the shop
or in some way impact the bottom line positively?  =
By the way, what is the K-Cone?

16) From: Yakster
Search for Coava coffee to get a peak at the Kone, a photo-etched stainless
steel cone filter designed to be used in a Chemex.
-Chris
Pecked out on my mobile phone.
On Nov 3, 2010 6:14 AM, "Tom Ulmer"  wrote:
<Snip>
from
<Snip>
weekend
<Snip>
to
<Snip>
off
<Snip>
programmable
<Snip>
around
<Snip>
as
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17) From: Joseph Robertson
Bry,
Nice to hear from someone else in the industry. I really enjoyed myself at
the SCF this year. I did not get back up on Sunday like I wanted. I would
have loved to spend more time on the floor checking out all the new stuff
and buzz going on in our coffee world. Critical to stay up with trends and
market changes.
The coffee world is way bigger than it was when I only home roasted  for
myself.  Not to rant on your rant but I remember as a home roaster I looked
up to professionals who coffee is an everyday event like with our host Tom.
This discussion reminds me so much when I competed in Tavern hard tip darts.
Remember the steel tip dart with the nice cork boards that hung in many bars
and taverns?
What I discovered at a ripe young age of 30 is that if I played with the
pro's and big guys in this world I improved way faster than only throwing
darts at my home board. Same goes for this wonderful world of coffee. This
is why I love hangin' at your's and miKe's shop as much as I can. It has
nothing to do with my numerical age, more with the fact that miKe M. and you
have way more experience with coffee than I have years left on this planet.
Thanks for being part of my coffee world. By the way how is your nose doing
after taking a wooopin' from Sarah? ;^) Sure was fun taking that sensory
exam at the espresso parts booth to find out if I can sniff out earth
tobacco rubber and some fruits. I have a lot of work to do before I can be a
serious cupper. I want that kit. Great to bump into ya Bry and visit if for
just a few minutes at the fest. Say hi to miKe for me.
Be Well,
Joseph
On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 1:31 AM, Bryan Wray wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and palate reform.
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18) From: Ira
At 01:31 AM 11/3/2010, you wrote:
<Snip>
If you, as in Mikes company, was to supply coffee to a commercial 
customer looking for a high quality single serve solution for 
untrained counter help, the Trifecta might be perfect as you could 
get to supply both the coffee and the brewing parameters which could 
be adjusted as necessary with each delivery. Done correctly, even the 
counter staff at McDonalds could serve a good cup of coffee in a 
reasonable time frame with enough machines.  It might not be the 
perfect machine for you, but it might be the perfect machine for you 
to be in charge of to be used by the masses of uncaring counter help.
Ira
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19) From: Ira
At 01:31 AM 11/3/2010, you wrote:
<Snip>
I should say that I thought they made a number of mistakes in the 
design, the main one being that if you mount it on the counter 
between you and the customer, the process is hidden from the customer 
and since it's cool to watch I would expect the up-sell from 
pre-brewed to single cup would be higher if the customer could see it 
happening.  Personally I figured it would fail but I'm guessing I'll 
be proven wrong in the end.
Ira
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20) From: Edward Bourgeois
I'm just glad to see coffee getting better at the average. The Green
Mt. cup machines here in the Northeast are pretty big. No fuss no mess
and folks don't have to stop someplace.  It's an acceptable cup which
makes most folks happy. Espresso on the other hand still sucks at most
places. What fascinates me is there's a place in my area that serves
espresso with "everything", yes everything wrong with it. I watch
people sip on one and they don't flinch at all????? In the search for
a great cup/roast I know I'm way off the beaten path.
-- 
Ed Bourgeois aka farmroast
Amherst MA.http://coffee-roasting.blogspot.com/Homeroast mailing list
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21) From: miKe mcKoffee
Personally I love the marriage of art and science in a myriad of coffee
ways. And agree the Trifecta could be one of them, used similar fashion to
creating a roast profile for a certain bean and then running it automated
rather than manually adjusting gas and airflow at various stages during a
roast every single batch. (like for 22 batches yesterday) With tweaks here
and there as beans age, environment changes etc. of course. The art is
creating and adjusting/maintaining the profile, not rote manual adjustments
over and over. However, at ~$5k a pop don't see us forking out $15k for even
just one Trifecta at each location anytime soon. And since a singe brew
machine would really require more than one most locations...
Don't currently have any wholesale customers flush enough to justify that
type of single brewer either. 
Though in reality the expense could be justified, at the expense of one less
barista job. So pay Bunn, or pay a person passionate about really learning
coffee. In the long run the machine could be cheaper, but oh so impersonal.
Slave to the Bean  miKe mcKoffee
www.CompassCoffeeRoasting.com
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
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22) From: Bryan Wray
No offense, but we wouldn't sell our coffee to a high volume commercial cus=
tomer with untrained counter help.
We'd work with them, train them, develop palate training practices... but i=
n the end, if they just didn't care then we just wouldn't bother.
I'm not going to bust my @$$ to roast 15 different Centrals in a 2 week spa=
n, and cup them, and brew them under different parameters, and dial them =
on the espresso machine with a daunting and unending number of variables if=
 in the end I'm delivering it to the doorstep of someone that doesn't give =
a damn.  Especially when you factor in that a typical week is 100 hours BEF=
ORE any of those things come into play.
The "high quality single serve solution for untrained counter help" doesn't=
 exist.  Have them wash dishes for 2 months and tell them to pay attention =
to what happens on the bar.  If after a month of scrubbing they feel like c=
offee is still something they want to explore, then they are worth my time =
and can start running the register or something like that.  But if they are=
 just in it for the shortcut, then perhaps they should turn their focus to =
super-auto espresso machines, beans that don't cost as much and staggering =
their "special of the day" to keep their customers guessing who'll be getti=
ng the freebie that afternoon ("Ooo look! Punchcards!"  Now THAT'S a loyal =
customer... *eyeroll*).  There's a hell of a big market out there for medio=
cre, but I don't want my name associated with it and I know miKe doesn't ei=
ther.
-bry
Bryan Wray
Compass Coffee
360.831.1480
Bryan
It is my hope that people realize that coffee is more than just a caffeine =
delivery service, it can be a culinary art- Chris Owens
--- On Wed, 11/3/10, Ira  wrote:
From: Ira 
Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Single cup brewers
To: "A list to discuss home coffee roasting. There are rules for this list,=
 available athttp://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html"
Date: Wednesday, November 3, 2010, 8:16 PM
At 01:31 AM 11/3/2010, you wrote:
<Snip>
perature stability.  The sealed chamber does quite a bit for it.  You t=
hink your Clever brews are tasty?  Try doing one where the temperature do=
esn't drop 12-16 degrees over
 the coarse of the 4 minute brewing cycle.  And that's why you don't see =
them "in the industry."   ;)
If you, as in Mikes company, was to supply coffee to a commercial customer =
looking for a high quality single serve solution for untrained counter help=
, the Trifecta might be perfect as you could get to supply both the coffee =
and the brewing parameters which could be adjusted as necessary with each d=
elivery. Done correctly, even the counter staff at McDonalds could serve a =
good cup of coffee in a reasonable time frame with enough machines.  It m=
ight not be the perfect machine for you, but it might be the perfect machin=
e for you to be in charge of to be used by the masses of uncaring counter h=
elp.
Ira =
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23) From: Ira
At 09:41 PM 11/3/2010, you wrote:
<Snip>
I think you misunderstood my point. First off, I didn't say or imply 
espresso, Just this weeks cup of coffee brewed in a Trifecta with 
your brewing parameters. Pick up a the right few customers like that 
and Mike can afford a bigger or second roaster and suddenly your life 
gets easier. And if you wanted, you could use that delivery system 
and an hour of training to insure that decent single serve coffee was 
being served.
I had no interest in insulting you, but you are running a business 
and you always need to be aware of opportunities. As I saw someone 
else point out if you sell something like 50 cups of coffee a day for 
an extra 50 cents, the payback on the Trifecta is quite short.
Ira
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24) From: Allon Stern
On Nov 3, 2010, at 4:31 AM, Bryan Wray wrote:
<Snip>
DARN RIGHT you shouldn't.
You should walk up to it, and a sensor should automatically open it for you, then after you walk through, it should automatically close again.
;-)
-
allon
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