HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Why I will be selling my Behmor and buying an M3 (28 msgs / 850 lines)
1) From: sci
Today I found a real treasure while shifting some stuff in my deep freeze
(non defrosting).
It was a vacuum sealed 1/2 pound of '07 crop IMV, a legendary bean everybody
here will remember. It must have slid down past the box I keep my beans in.
So it has been lurking there for nearly 4 years!
So I let it thaw, and against my better judgment decided to roast it in the
Behmor, aiming for a modest C+
So I preheated (without beans) and loaded the full 8oz with P2 and 13
minutes.
Launch.
At 10 min. no sign of first crack near. I added the maximum amount of time.
At just one minute before the time ran out, first crack started.
I was angry that I could not add a little more time. Why not? Why does the
dang thing have to strictly limit how much time you can add. Even my IR2
allows you to add as much time as you want at the end.
Anyway, I only got to a C roast, and barely. First crack was starting to
subside a little right before Cool started. All I needed was another 15-30
seconds on that roast.
This is why I'm ditching the Behmor. Far too many times it has left me
sitting with an underdeveloped roast because I can't add a little more time.
I have great line voltage (125 under load) so that isn't the problem.
So I will start saving my pennies today for the M3 and I will be selling my
B1600.
Ivan
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2) From: Barry Luterman
I'm thinking Quest as well. But I will hold on to my Behmor for indoor
roasts.Ivan your beans might have been too old to roast well in any
roaster. Didn't have the problem of indoor vs outdoor roasts in
Hawaii. But then again there are no shark attacks or tsunamis vin
Portland
On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 6:26 PM, sci  wrote:
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3) From: Bob Hazen
Ivan,
Your post got me to thinking. . . .  (no small feat on a Friday evening)
I have also struggled with the Behmor's inflexibility.  I have been content, 
mostly, with P2.  I think I have it psyched out, but it annoys me to jump 
through hoops to outwit the roaster.  It sure seems that the control board 
could be replaced with an array of switches for the various operating modes. 
Full manual control (and responsibility) would result.  This could be done 
by most anybody with a bit of do-it-yourself mindset.  Slippery slope for 
sure.  The next step for folks with microcontroller knowledge would be a 
replacement controller board.
I'd venture that the built-in limitations were mandated by the safety agency 
(UL?  ETL??) that listed the product.  Clearly, bypassing the safeguards may 
increase the user's risk.  Having worked with these agencies, though, I 
don't expect their requirements ensure a safe product anyway.
Bob
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4) From: Rich
The max time for each profile was reduced due to the ease of reaching 
3rd crack which was uncovered in the beta testing phase.  It is a bit 
inconvenient though.
On 12/10/2010 09:40 PM, Bob Hazen wrote:
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5) From: Jim Couch
Been reading kinda conflicting info on this thread. Can't hit first crack
yet times on profiles are limited due to ease of hitting "Third Crack". True
you may hafta lie to your machine (1/2 pound run on full pound setting) In
fact I could go along with calling a B1600 a half pound
roaster........Sounds like folks are very "Hot" to try the Quest M3 and
trying to justify with reasons other than just I Wanna...........
On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 10:48 AM, John Nanci wrote:
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"Idiots are so much fun! Thats why every village either has one or wants
one!"
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6) From: Barry Luterman
You are right.There is always upgraditis associated with guilt on our
list.The point is the Quest is not a replacement for the Behmor.
Rather it is a replacement for the Hot Top
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7) From: sci
 That thought crossed my mind, but this trick, which I have used before,
makes the P2 profile have its power dip at the wrong place. It would roast
the 8 oz. up through first crack at full power, and the dip would occur
somewhere after 2nd crack (far too late). So it would really just be the
same as P1 wouldn't it?
My beef is that the B1600 can obviously handle 24 min roasts, so why
restrict the amount of time one can add on the fly in the 1/4# and 1/2#
mode? It doesn't make any sense, even for safety. You should be able to keep
adding time at the end to extend the roast to the degree you want, then hit
cool.
There was no danger of 3rd crack! heck, the danger was that I would not even
hit 1st. You can imagine my angst as I watched my precious batch of '07 IMV
about to go south when with just 1:15 left on the roast first crack had not
started. Agghh!
As for the age of beans, my experience is this: vacuum sealed deep frozen
(i.e., with no defrost cycles!) beans are fine for a very long time. How
long exactly I don't know, but I will find out. Hard to test too since you
can't have a control batch. But I have roasted many batches of beans with 2+
years with no issues. I recently pulled out 1# of '08 Guat. Oriente DP and
it yielded crazy fruit punch flavor just like the day it arrived. I concede
that the age of the beans might change the roasting profile, making this a
"fly by the seat of your pants" roast. All the more reason for more control.
Why is control so hard to get and so pricey? [It used to be that "automatic"
things were pricey, and manual things were inexpensive, but now it is the
opposite. Sometimes, I hate so-called "progress," but I digress.]
As for upgraditis, yes i have it and no I don't. I've owned the B1600 for 1
year, so I'm not itching for upgrade, but have never achieved stupendous
results because of lack of control, and maybe too the heat transfer issues.
Honestly, my 4 year old IR2 roasts better coffee, but, oh, such tiny
batches. Even my well used Whirley Pop does better. Maybe M3 isn't a
replacement for the B1600 (only b/c cost 4x), but at this point in my
roasting maturity it is time to get something like M3, because I understand
more about the bean than the B1600 will allow me exploit. I have toyed with
the idea of the Genecafe and the Hottop, but M3 seems to be their
replacement.
So M3 here I come!
Ivan
//Ivan,
///Why didn't you put it on the 1 lb setting and roast the 8oz?  It
///would have given you plenty of time.  On the other hand, if that is
///what you did, and you could not roast 8 oz in 20 minutes, something
//is wrong and you should contact customer support.  That isn't right.
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8) From: mark jones
Quoting Ivan:
"At 10 min. no sign of first crack near. I added the maximum amount of time.
At just one minute before the time ran out, first crack started.
I was angry that I could not add a little more time. Why not? Why does the
dang thing have to strictly limit how much time you can add. Even my IR2
allows you to add as much time as you want at the end.
Anyway, I only got to a C roast, and barely. First crack was starting to
subside a little right before Cool started. All I needed was another 15-30
seconds on that roast.
This is why I'm ditching the Behmor. Far too many times it has left me
sitting with an underdeveloped roast because I can't add a little more time.
I have great line voltage (125 under load) so that isn't the problem.
So I will start saving my pennies today for the M3 and I will be selling my
B1600."
Having used the Behmor for about 1 year now, I've made some adjustments in how I interact with the last few minutes of any of my roasts.  As I approach the end of the programmed timed cycles I start to guestimate the amount of time needed to get to where I want the roast to get too.  If I hit zero and the cool cycle kicks in, and I want to extend the roast for a while longer, I just turn the machine off. I count to 5 and hit cool and let it run for about 2 seconds. repeat as needed. I do that to keep the beans mixing and not burning as they touch each other and the drum.  When I do this, the residual heat takes the beans as dark as I want them. Spinning them for a moment stops any burning. The cool cycle really doesn't get wound up and the fan barely starts. I've done this for up to several minutes and had great results. 
As others have noted, and I follow the same procedure, I seldom put 1 pound of beans in and roast them.  I like 10 to 12 ounces at a time. I set the 1 pound base time and go from there.  I now start a roast, set a timer for 13 minutes and return to make adjustments during the last 5 to 10 minutes.  
As a side note. My name is Mark Jones. I have read posts on the forum from a different Mark Jones. I'll be Mark Jones (pa) since I'm in Pennsylvania.  I enjoy all the threads and interaction within the homeroast board. You folks are passionate about your Java and I have and continue to learn from both observing and doing.
This is my first post. I'm sure there will be more.
Mark Jones(pa)
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9) From: Bob Hazen
I run P2-1lb with my Behmor, but I load 335 g of beans.  The dip occurs 
within 10-20 seconds of 1st crack depending on the bean.  I think 8 oz is 
too little for tricking the Behmor.
Bob

10) From: Dhananjaya
I wanna!
No complains on my trusty original upgraded Hottop, which I'll keep, but the
M3 sounds like a fun cup upgrade. Waiting for the stock to replenish -
arrgh!
DJ
Spring chicken at 61 ...

11) From: Mark Jones
Hi Mark, 
Your post caught me off guard; I was like wait a minute, I didn't post anything. Welcome to the forum. Funny as it maybe, I'm also from PA, Scranton to be exact. 
Mark P. Jones

12) From: phil.palmintere
Scranton? Scranton??  Are you in the Witness Protection Program?  :-)
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

13) From: Jim Couch
Best Reason I have heard so far!!!
DO IT!
I would love to myself but I am presently victim to that dreaded Italian
disease, Fundasalow. So I can't, right now.
On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 2:07 PM, Dhananjaya <
djgarcia> wrote:
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14) From: Dave Huddle
Ivan,
Have you tried the 'screw driver' tweak that lets the Behmor run a bit
hotter?    Also, the area between the screws - right side rear- needs
to be CLEAN for best results.   I have no trouble roasting 8oz on the
1/2 lb setting.
Dave
On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 9:26 PM, sci  wrote:
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15) From: Mark Jones
HAHA, Scranton does get its fare share of those folks, especially those that turn up face down in an old mind shaft. 
Mark P. Jones

16) From: Jim Couch
AMEN!
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 8:45 AM, David Rossell
wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
"Idiots are so much fun! Thats why every village either has one or wants
one!"
G. House MD.
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17) From: g paris p
Ivan:
that is the same for me; the machine is a good roaster but you really have
no serious control.
I have a lot with my Hot Top and once I can use my fingers on my right hand
I will have total control with my
QM3 ent to me by my sister.
ginny
On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 7:26 PM, sci  wrote:
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18) From: Edward Bourgeois
The Behmor is a good first attempt IMHO but just that. The chaff
singeing issue is unacceptable. Having to trick the roaster by setting
1lb and roasting 8-12oz defeats part of the safety features. If I had
to tell an insurance agent whether or not I was using the roaster as
instructed would I have to lie? If the floor was 1 inch or so lower
would the chaff issue improve? A mod I just haven't had a chance to
try. Having a roaster that will do a full lb. indoors into 2nd crack
with 15amps and having good smoke suppression is challenging at best.
I might prefer 8-10oz but with the ability to do back to back. The
wire mesh drum and radiant heat application is a good concept as is
the roaster design in general but with all now learned it needs a
version 2 IMO.
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 12:31 PM, Ira  wrote:
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out
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mariascoffee.com
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19) From: Rich
What convinces me that most of this is operator induced error is that I 
can reliably roast 1.25lb of dry processed Ethiopian beans to FC+ or 
even into French with no problem, at the default time of 18 minutes. 
What is being missed is you can actually vary the roast profile by 
varying the weight of beans and the bean/roaster start temperature. 
Initial bean temperature will result in very measurable changes in the 
EOR time, all else being equal.
On 12/13/2010 12:12 PM, Edward Bourgeois wrote:
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20) From: Hank Perkins
Your kidding right??  1.25lb in 18 min???  I hit the first pop of C2
in 18 min with 12 oz, P1, 2 min pre roast, in a clean Behmor if, I am
lucky.  This normally takes 20:00.
One big issue I had was the temperature variance I saw after I
installed a thermocouple from roast to roast under similar conditions.
 Sometimes up to 50 degrees F.
I checked my voltage with my multi meter and it was running 121-119.
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 12:25 PM, Rich  wrote:
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21) From: Greg Hollrigel
This is so bizarre, if you don't mind another opinion.  I have about 160
roasts with the Behmor under my belt and have roasted anywhere from 8 oz to
16 oz.  I never have these problems of underroasting, unless I just guess
wrong.  Anytime I'm on P3 or P4, I can easily get to 2nd crack.  Granted,
I'm in So California, where it barely gets cold, so that may play a little
bit of a factor.  I've successfully roasted Tom's beans from a bunch of
different countries.
I know for me, my roasts taste better than what I can get locally, so even
if I'm not hitting all the beans perfectly, they still taste great.  For
instance, I've been playing around with the Sidamo Maduro and a Sulawesi
that was highly recommended a few months ago, and those beans are
outstanding.
I'm just wondering if this is really more due to variations in the Behmor
units.  I believe my smoke suppressor has broken, since I seem to get more
smoke these days.  But overall, it's working great.  It just seems so odd
that so many different people, who are all fanatical to some degree since
they roast their own, have such different experiences.
Greg
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 11:07 AM, Hank Perkins wrote:
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22) From: Rich
Nope, that is the way it works.  If the thermocouple is exposed to 
either direct or reflected IR radiation the reading is meaningless. 
Radiant energy heats things, not air.  The air in the cavity is heated 
by the structure, mainly the beans.  No preheat either.  Every test I 
ran showed no consistent measurable change in roast times with a preheat 
as compared to no preheat.  Initial bean temperature is stabilized at 
70F and the roaster is also at 70F.  The roaster is from the first batch 
and has the "cold roaster" mod.
On 12/13/2010 01:07 PM, Hank Perkins wrote:
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23) From: Hank Perkins
I am beginning to think we have some variance in units as well.
Greg, I am certain what you roast is better than what you buy unless
you have a artisan roaster near by.
Anyway, I hope all you guys enjoy what ever you are roasting with.
Hank
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 1:20 PM, Rich  wrote:
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24) From: Ronald Parker
I am a newbie but agree with David.  I have been maintaining the Behmor and
adjusting it as per various recommendations and have been able to get to FC
and FC+ when I wanted roasting a pound at a time using P1.  I have been
having a great time roasting coffe beans with the Behmor.
Ron
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 9:45 AM, David Rossell
wrote:
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25) From: Edward Bourgeois
The thermostat design seems easily vulnerable to variances even if
kept equally clean with another unit.
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 3:06 PM, Hank Perkins  wrote:
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-- =
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26) From: sci
 Ok, first I don't want to be perceived as "bad mouthing" the Behmor, or
it's builder. I'm glad it exists and it is built well. I wish more people
would build machines for our quest. So I'm not bad mouthing the B1600, but
expressing my frustrations that apparently many share.  I'm persnickety  and
need the simplicity of control instead of the complications of preset
automatic procrustean bed profiles. Beans differ. They roast differently.
You need to be able to adjust, but once you press start on the B1600, you
have very little control other than opening the door. Every cooking method I
use is full manual. I have a gas stove. I can adjust heat and cook time very
delicately (and I do in the Whirley Pop). Why can't we have that simplicity
in a roaster? Again, why is automatic cheap and manual control costly? It is
counter intuitive. Even my cheapo toaster oven (using the same quartz
elements) lets me set the temperature with an analog knob and it doesn't
care how much stuff is inside of it. I can burn food to a smoking crisp with
every other cooking device I own. Why is a coffee roaster any different?
John, and by association Joe Behmor, the B1600 is not just a one pounder; it
is also a 1/4 pounder and a 1/2 pounder. I clearly understand why you can't
just keep adding infinite time to the one pound setting. But the 1/4 and 1/2
modes could easily allow you to keep adding time until you hit the degree of
roast you want. All three modes could be built so that you can add no more
than 15-30 seconds at a time, thus forcing you to stand there in front of
the machine to operate and watch it just when it should be most closely
watched (and thereby increase safety). Just sayin'.
I'm going to the M3 for control, but I will miss the Behmor's ability to
roast 14oz.
Thanks Mr. Behmor for building the B1600. I bought one and use it a lot, and
will even recommend it to the many people I've influenced to roast coffee. I
hope one day it can be improved, but I have outgrown it.
Ivan
I spoke with Joe about some of this thread, and he told me some
interesting things.
To the question of why can't you just keep adding time, the answer is
basically this. There is no other 1 lb roaster on the market.  It's
is a new animal and basically has new 'rules'.  No manufacturer would
build it without time limits after they themselves saw how
differently 1 lb of beans behaves as compared to 1/2 lb.  Basically,
his hands were tied.  Likewise, he could not get insurance nor ETL
approval for the roaster without this feature.  It's one of those
realities of the market.
And for those vocal few (no offense) that can't reach 2nd crack just
when they want, there are 10 fold or more who can.  Just something to
think about.
John
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27) From: John Nanci
Hrm, that was an interesting way to take that.
No, I don't imply things.  I'm saying you don't tend to hear about 
all the people who have roasters that work just fine.  Sure, you hear 
some, but not most.  That's all I said and all I meant.
At 09:32 AM 12/13/2010, you wrote:
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28) From: Paul Leung
I've had a fair share of chaff fires with just 8 oz. of DP beans--enough  to 
make me nervous and sweaty-palmed every time I hit first crack  (visions of a 
sweat-drenched, trembling index finger slipping off the "Cool"  button and 
sending my Behmor into the Third Crack Club...).
1.25 lbs of DP beans in the Behmor roasted to Full City+ or French?!? Indoors? 
Without a fire extinguisher in reach? You are the Evel Knievel of coffee 
roasters!
Back on topic, sort of. The Behmor is a very good roaster for the price, batch 
size, and smoke suppression. I certainly understand Behmor owners wanting more 
out of it. It is easy to overlook its benefits. Can you imagine life for home 
roasters pre-Behmor? The Quest M3 looks awfully nice, but at 3x the price of a 
Behmor and 2x a HotTop, I would certainly expect a significant  improvement in 
roast quality and control (and I certainly wouldn't be upset if a M3 showed up 
under the Christmas tree this year...)
Paul
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    list,    available athttp://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html"    
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    M3
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