HomeRoast Digest


Topic: THE home roaster (30 msgs / 834 lines)
1) From: Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
It's something we have batted around for a long time. It comes up 
recurrently. Honestly at one point there seemed to be almost TOO much 
interest in home roasting, mostly by those who wanted to strike it 
rich by inventing THE home roasting machine. But their ideas of good 
features always seemed to be , well, everything I would find either 
useless, or ineffective. The problem with trying to create a 
reasonably priced home roaster is that it takes a skill set I don't 
have. I can dream it up but I can't make it go ... then add to that 
the huge problem with actually getting it manufactured right, and not 
going over budget ... it's not easy. It makes me have some 
appreciation for Behmor although I see it's faults. I would not want 
to make an appliance to convince people who would normally not roast 
their own coffee that they should. I would want to make one for those 
who DO roast their own coffee, to allow them to do it better. The 
Quest M3 is not really what I would have in mind, but it does have 
the right feature set. And of course it is also not really a home 
machine at all, not a home appliance, nothing you would ever find 
among blenders and toaster ovens. One way to approach this that might 
get around some legal hurdles (because a really GOOD home roaster is 
probably not going to be idiot-proof, and I am sure would be 
classified as a fire hazard by some agency) is to make a kit. If it 
was build around some commonly available heat source, and you had to 
put it together, but gave control of heat/air, manual control of 
roast curves, physical sampling from the roast chamber, and cooled 
outside the roast chamber in 4 min or less, that would hit most of my 
targets. One disagreement I might find with other home roasters would 
be batch size. I think that a 150-300 gram batch is ideal. Many are 
going to want 1 lb. I think the best thing about home roasting is 
freshness and variety. So I like smaller batches. But if you can 
roast and cool at the same time in a machine like this, I think most 
would be okay with a 1/2 lb batch.
Tom
<Snip>
-- 
-Tom
"Great coffee comes from little roasters" - Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting
               Thompson & Maria -http://www.sweetmarias.com     Sweet Maria's Coffee - 1115 21st Street, Oakland, CA 94607 - USA
             phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - info_at_sweetmarias.com
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2) From: Edward Bourgeois
Tom said, "One way to approach this that might get around some legal
hurdles (because a really GOOD home roaster is probably not going to
be idiot-proof, and I am sure would be classified as a fire hazard by
some agency) is to make a kit".
This is what I've never heard a good explanation on. How can we work
around UL and avoid a life of prison coffee if we sell a roaster or
kit to someone. A friend of mine is a lawyer but not product liability
which she says is extremely complicated and confusing.
On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 4:11 PM, Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
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-- =
Ed Bourgeois aka farmroast
Amherst MA.http://coffee-roasting.blogspot.com/Homeroast mailing list
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3) From: Hank Perkins
I build stuff for a living.  The electronics here are not rocket science.  The mechanicals are. There is enough complexity here to manufacture a drum roaster even with design software such as Solidworks would require either a high price, or a high quantity. Unit 1 would be very expensive. The Quest looks fairly complex to assemble.  Touch labor is another consideration. 
This does not even consider UL testing which is very expensive. Now, you don't have to be UL approved but if you are not you better have some good product liability insurance and without testing approvals that is expensive. 
The Behmor is not UL approved but it is ETL approved. 
Tom, just don't ask me to send the Quest back!  
On Dec 15, 2010, at 3:22 PM, Edward Bourgeois  wrote:
<Snip>
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4) From: Joseph Robertson
Ed,
What would be the technical difference between me selling you a ham radio I
built or a home roaster and they both short out and burn a house down. There
has got to be a disclaimer to protect the seller?
Just wondering. If you get a chance, please ask her ( your attorney friend
)this for me.
Plenty of folks have sold kits they built to other, say ham friends. A kit
should be a kit if you get my jest. True one has a lot of heat inside and I
do realize insurance rates are based on incident reports and frequency of
occurrence etc. etc etc.
Thank for your input Ed,
Joe
On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Edward Bourgeois wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and palate reform.
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5) From: Hank Perkins
Joe,
One big difference is the roaster is an oven that will generate temperatures upwards of 500 degrees.  Home electronics are not heaters. There is a big difference right there. 
Secondly, anytime you participate in an act of commerce with another individual you potentially accept liability personally or as a business. 
On Dec 15, 2010, at 4:19 PM, Joseph Robertson  wrote:
<Snip>
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6) From: Edward Bourgeois
I've had lots of requests for my homebuilt and they are willing to pay
the price I've said I would have to charge but without a way to avoid
liability I just say no. But sure wish I could say yes. I'm to old and
not willing to go through the 8 years of hell Joe did to get the
Behmor to market.
On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 5:16 PM, Hank Perkins  wrote:
<Snip>
e.  The mechanicals are. There is enough complexity here to manufacture a=
 drum roaster even with design software such as Solidworks would require ei=
ther a high price, or a high quantity. Unit 1 would be very expensive. The =
Quest looks fairly complex to assemble.  Touch labor is another considera=
tion.
<Snip>
don't have to be UL approved but if you are not you better have some good p=
roduct liability insurance and without testing approvals that is expensive.
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-- =
Ed Bourgeois aka farmroast
Amherst MA.http://coffee-roasting.blogspot.com/Homeroast mailing list
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7) From: Joseph Robertson
Hank,
Thanks for that. Very clear points you make.
Joe
On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 2:27 PM, Hank Perkins  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and palate reform.
Homeroast mailing list
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8) From: Steven Van Dyke
At 03:11 PM 12/15/2010, you wrote:
<Snip>
That's why I'm a happy GeneCafe user.  I roast 250 grams / batch, 
generally just more than once a week.  Takes about 30 minutes total, 
coffee comes out *great*!
However, the cooling *is* the one feature that could be improved - 
it's almost half of the cycle time (does get under 300 degrees in 
just over 2 minutes).  The main thing is that you have to start the 
cooling just *before* you want to stop the roast - it's that slight 
'coast' that makes it tricky at first.
The simple two knob, two button interface is great when you know what 
you're doing (or even close) but for a total beginner it would help 
to at least have some 'profiles' printed out in the manual.
Ah well, as has been said before, the true key to getting great 
coffee *out* of your roaster is to put great greens *into* your roaster.
Enjoy!
Steve :->
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9) From: Deward Hastings
<Snip>
They *think* they want 1 lb., so they get promised 1 lb. . . . but you're
not going to get it in an inexpensive 120V plug-in appliance.  That's one of
my "objections" to the Behmor, the 1 lb. "claim" (that, along with the
idiotic "profiles").  Mine will turn 1 lb. brown, barely.  I tell it a
pound, and load 300 gram, which is plenty.  I can't get to FC+, or even FC,
otherwise.  Apart from that I'm satisfied with it . . . I've given up on
"profile" roasting . . . I just set it on P1 and listen for the cracks.
It's kind of full circle . . . I used to be nuts about "profile" (with the
fully instrumented and controlled Rosto) . . . now I'm content with "just"
an appliance . . . and good beans (thank you so very much for that) fresh
roasted . . .
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10) From: Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
One thing to consider is that Behmor is a limited time 1 lb roaster - 
as the bulbs get coated, and it ages, it becomes less capable of 1 
lb. I am doing a 1 Lb roast of Panama Camiseta as I write this on a 
slightly worn Behmor to see the max degree of roast I can get. I also 
asked Maria to make sure the batch size of 1/2 lb is the one we 
advocate, and that 1 Lb. has a big asterisk after it explaining what 
the limitations are. We have 3 behmors here, and one definitely 
cannot do 1 lb due to age. ( PS: Frankly, I dislike it as a 1/4 Lb 
roaster too. )
<Snip>
-- 
-Tom
"Great coffee comes from little roasters" - Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting
               Thompson & Maria -http://www.sweetmarias.com     Sweet Maria's Coffee - 1115 21st Street, Oakland, CA 94607 - USA
             phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - info_at_sweetmarias.com
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11) From: Pat Sklenar
are the bulbs user replaceable and if so, can we get them from you, or 
where do we need to go?
thank you,
pat----
On 12/16/2010 2:33 PM, Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee wrote:
<Snip>
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12) From: Rich
So, then pray tell, how do I get it to roast 20 oz with the default time 
setting on 1lb P-1 and end the roast with 1 to 2 minutes left on the clock?
On 12/16/2010 12:56 PM, Deward Hastings wrote:
<Snip>
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13) From: Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
By the way, it would seem P1, as the hottest setting, would get the 
coffee the darkest, but it is actually P5 that will get coffee the 
darkest at 1 LB, the one with the max roast time. -T
<Snip>
-- 
-Tom
"Great coffee comes from little roasters" - Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting
               Thompson & Maria -http://www.sweetmarias.com     Sweet Maria's Coffee - 1115 21st Street, Oakland, CA 94607 - USA
             phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - info_at_sweetmarias.com
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14) From: Robert Yoder
Hi Tom,
 
Thanks for your thoughtful and informative posts (as usual)!
 
Is there any reason that the heaters in the Behmor could not be cleaned (carefully), or kept clean by judicious use of, say, simple green?
 
Happy Holidays and,
 
Happy Roasting,
 
robert yoder
 
<Snip>
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15) From: Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
<Snip>
OK - I have a cold and must not be thinking straight. We did 1 LB on 
P1 at max time and it was full on French roast whereas P5 was a bit 
into 2nd, but nowhere near as dark. Of the two- the P5 was definitely 
the better roast, but my previous comment about P1 not being as dark 
at Max setting was wrong...
-- 
-Tom
"Great coffee comes from little roasters" - Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting
               Thompson & Maria -http://www.sweetmarias.com     Sweet Maria's Coffee - 1115 21st Street, Oakland, CA 94607 - USA
             phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - info_at_sweetmarias.com
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16) From: Rich
I was wondering how you did that... ;)
On 12/16/2010 03:07 PM, Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee wrote:
<Snip>
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17) From: Allon Stern
On Dec 15, 2010, at 1:11 PM, Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee wrote:
<Snip>
This is the approach I took to my homebuilt roaster/mods - I separated the control from the device.
That is, I built a generic controller, which has a single plug that plugs into the wall, a pair of outlets on top - one is controlled by a dimmer, for manual fan speed control. The other is controlled by a solid-state relay, which is driven by a PID; the PID has a thermocouple socket on the front of the unit.
Currently it drives an iRoast2 body from which I stripped out all the control electronics. Of course, I could drive the heat and not the fan and watch the thing burn up, if not for the thermal switch built into the iRoast's heater, though I expect I might damage something that way.
This unit could be used to drive any coffee roaster consisting of a 120V fan and 120V heater. The trick is being able to apply enough heat to follow the roasting curves defined in the profile programmed into the PID - if the roast profile requires more heat than the machine can apply, then it will not be a good roaster.
Theoretically, I could use the same lash up (with a different SSR) to drive a 240VAC @40A roaster that could really pour on the heat.  The hard part is finding/building such a beast. And to be honest, I don't think I want to; With the iRoast2 I can push 170g roasts, if I'm careful, and if the profile is gentle enough. With the stock iRoast2, having to baby it along to get it to follow a profile, 150g is not enough; doing multiple back to back roasts was not fun. With the modified PID iRoast, I can run back-to-back roasts easily, and while it roasts, I have not much else to do than watch the PID run the profile, tweak the fan to get good bean circulation without driving it too fast (and running all my heat out the exhaust), and maybe clean up the basement a little bit at the same time.
-
allon
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18) From: g paris p
clearly ul listed does not mean safe!!
g
On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 2:22 PM, Edward Bourgeois wrote:
<Snip>
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19) From: Edward Bourgeois
But it does limit some liability as long as it is not considered
defective. Without it liability insurance goes up many fold.
On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 1:07 PM, g paris p  wrote:
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-- =
Ed Bourgeois aka farmroast
Amherst MA.http://coffee-roasting.blogspot.com/Homeroast mailing list
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20) From: Deward Hastings

21) From: Rich
Beans and roaster are at 70F, line voltage is 120v constant.  Beans 
roasted to the start of 2nd.  Machine is from the first batch shipped 
into the country.  Drum motor and smoke suppressor both replaced.
On 12/17/2010 09:16 PM, Deward Hastings wrote:
<Snip>
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22) From: Martin Maney
On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 01:11:08PM -0800, Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee wrote:
<Snip>http://pikibo-coffeetools.de/jpg/PIKIBO-Roestbiene-Lincar104V-1280.jpgExternal heat source, some assembly required, nothing but manual
control unless you build some automation, external cooling but I don't
think that's included beyond the end of the dump chute.  This is sort
of a German analog to the Quest that one of the regulars in the #coffee
channel on freenode recently acquired.  Yes, we thought it was funny,
too - the Quest looks more like the "fine German engineering" cliche
and vice versa.
Lots more info if you have the optional German decoder in your head:
 http://pikibo-coffeetools.de/roestbiene.html-- 
Anyone who says you can have a lot of widely dispersed people hack
away on a complicated piece of code and avoid total anarchy has never
managed a software project.  -- Andy Tanenbaum
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23) From: Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
That's pretty cool - never saw this one before. Looks like you could 
detonate bombs in the roast chamber without hurting that thing... Tom
<Snip>
-- 
-Tom
"Great coffee comes from little roasters" - Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting
               Thompson & Maria -http://www.sweetmarias.com     Sweet Maria's Coffee - 1115 21st Street, Oakland, CA 94607 - USA
             phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - info_at_sweetmarias.com
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24) From: Bob Hazen
After running through Google's translate page, it's a little easier for most 
of us to read:
"http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ieF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fpikibo-coffeetools.de%2Froestbiene.html"I wonder if this could be used on a gas stove?
Bob

25) From: Edward Bourgeois
Isn't the price $1200.00? I don't think the square design would help
even heating.
On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 2:00 AM, Bob Hazen  wrote:
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ost
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8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fpikibo-coffeetools.d=
e%2Froestbiene.html"
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etmariascoffee.com
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tmariascoffee.com
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mariascoffee.com
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-- =
Ed Bourgeois aka farmroast
Amherst MA.http://coffee-roasting.blogspot.com/Homeroast mailing list
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26) From: Bill S.
..I think the word "Panzer" should be somewhere in the name of this..
On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 1:39 AM, Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee <
sweetmarias> wrote:
<Snip>
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27) From: Brian Kamnetz
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28) From: miKe mcKoffee
FWIW any, all, every roaster is subject to ambient temp, wind, etc. =
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Homeroast mailing list
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29) From: Rich
It is a nice little Teutonic coffee roaster.  Indoor only though.  Just 
open the windows or use a range hood.  Those burners will blow out with 
only a gentle breeze.
The drum looks like it is made from a chunk of black iron pipe.
On 12/21/2010 04:38 PM, miKe mcKoffee wrote:
<Snip>
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30) From: Martin Maney
On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 11:00:51PM -0800, Bob Hazen wrote:
<Snip>
I always forget how much better automated translations are now.
Thanks!
-- 
Among the greater ironies of the computer age is the fact that
information is cheap and accessible, and so it is no longer very valuable.
What is valuable is what one does with it.
And human imagination cannot be mechanized. -- the New York Times
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