HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Hot Rod Home Coffee Roasters: The Spirit of (18 msgs / 1227 lines)
1) From: Greg Hammond
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2) From: Edward Bourgeois
Thanks Greg,
I admit I struggled a bit to not sound like an old fart rant. But do
think that Hot rods and the ideas that create them can then be
hopefully stolen (in a good way) and lead to future better off the
shelf models.
On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 1:53 PM, Greg Hammond  wrote:
<Snip>
ugh "can do" to go around), but I tend to see the overall issue differently=
.  This sounds so much like the audio industry--"whatever happened to peo=
ple willing to study and build their own tube amps?"—or cars (whatever ha=
ppened to people who could change their own oil or actually work on their e=
ngine?).  I even read an editorial bewailing the loss of special status a=
ssociate with being a Mac user now that Apple is a CE giant. Oh please.
<Snip>
sophistication of the off-the-shelf offerings is a direct resut of commerci=
alization of early individualized efforts and the explosion of the craft br=
ew industry.
<Snip>
nd the hobbyists have changed. I used to design and build audio equipment. =
Now I buy it. If I had to rely on people to keep doing what I did, well, th=
ere wouldn't be many choices. No market can survive long in pioneer mode al=
one. It needs to grow. And growth implies more ready-to-use solutions. So, =
yes, by all means, let's encourage the pioneer inventor/developer, but the =
reality is that market success is possible only when we eventually get past=
 that as the primary development mechanism.
<Snip>
 novices in, to make it easy to roast. And we need more graduates of Behmor=
s to bring $15k roaster prices down to $4500. We get that only with a bigge=
r market. I enjoy the heck out of my Behmor. With all the workarounds and p=
rofile overlaps, and blending, I get some stuff that I just cannot buy anyw=
here. And all this workaround and the original inventiveness is great for l=
earning.
<Snip>
roaster that I can plug into a 20-amp circuit, and start using after orderi=
ng it 2 days earlier through Amazon prime.
<Snip>
tmariascoffee.com
<Snip>
fee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
<Snip>
mariascoffee.com
<Snip>
ee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
-- =
Ed Bourgeois aka farmroast
Amherst MA.http://coffee-roasting.blogspot.com/Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetma=riascoffee.com
Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820

3) From: Greg Hammond
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PTc4MjA=

5) From: Greg Hammond
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7) From: Greg Hammond
No argument with any of that Rich. There are many stories of design patents=
 that made huge sense that had many obstacles.
As for product liability, that market is soft. I know; among other things I=
 do, I go to market both wholesale and retail for it. Granted, there is a b=
it of a chicken/egg problem [yeah, I know, the egg came first], but many a =
product liability app is turned down because of the lack of “verifiabilit=
y” of safety, which might as well be read as “idiot-consumer-proof.” =
 At some point, the small firm that relies on bootstrapped resources can be=
 too easily thwarted. =
But right now, there is ample investment money on the sidelines to pay for =
insurance. What it’s waiting for is proof of market. I had lunch with sev=
eral VCs the other day. Now, of course, they weren’t thinking about scale=
d down home coffee roasters, but they were thinking as investors. They all =
said the same thing: “Cost be damned; show mer the growth curve, and cost=
s can be brought in to line.” I.e., amortization across a growth market.
As for this:
<Snip>
sanity of a foreign court.
Yeah, that’s unfortunately not the normal repository for sanity it once w=
as.
Greg
------------------
On Jul 17, 2011, at 2:19 PM, Rich wrote:
<Snip>
a crescent type adjustable wrench with a small valve wrench on the other en=
d. You will note that it is not on the market. The patent was in hand, the =
design was done but the liability insurance was the end of it. A large tool=
 company offered to buy the patent for pocket change though. Product liabil=
ity insurance for a new unique product is near impossible to buy. There is =
none on the Quest and all they are depending on is the possible sanity of a=
 foreign court. And I was thinking an electrically heated roaster, not gas =
fired, so it could be used indoors. And to install any propane appliance yo=
u had better be in 100% compliance with the NFPA if the fire inspector deci=
des that the apliance started the fire. A non-aproved solid fuel appliance =
will be inspected by most insurance companies before writing a policy and i=
t better meet the NFPA code to the letter for solid fuel. I can go buy an a=
pproved wood burner at he big box but if my homeowner installation is not t=
o code I better not burn down the house with it. In most jurisdictions you =
need a real building permit to install one anyway.
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
t has to be amortized, and insurance is not free, though in the soft P&C ma=
rket, highly unlikely to be the ratio you suggest. In fact, without knowing=
 the market, we cannot possibly know the amortization ratios. There are ple=
nty of examples of high risk first stage product that go though similar cha=
llenges. Propane is a routine and dangerous fuel base, widely used everywhe=
re. So is gasoline. I have a grille with a propane starter but is capable o=
f burning wood up to 800 degrees. Plenty of wood stoves. Millions of natura=
l gas devices. The tedium of amortization and insurance are well known.
<Snip>
<Snip>
s the big challenge. Without a market, Insurance and R&D amortization risks=
 can be theoretically infinite.
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
ty insurance costs. The 1-2Kg roaster that could sell for 500-750 will be m=
ore like 4500-4750 and up due to these costs. No liability insurance compan=
y will provide coverage for an untested, brand new design device that is ca=
pable of taking 2 to 4 lb of a highly combustible material to 500F in less =
than 10 minutes with a forced or induced draft. You would have better luck =
if you installed an automatic 50lb CO2 fire suppression system on it but no=
t much.
<Snip>
<Snip>
es fire insurance is very difficult if you have a solid fuel appliance in t=
he building.
<Snip>
<Snip>
enough "can do" to go around), but I tend to see the overall issue differen=
tly.  This sounds so much like the audio industry--"whatever happened to pe=
ople willing to study and build their own tube amps?"—or cars (whatever h=
appened to people who could change their own oil or actually work on their =
engine?).  I even read an editorial bewailing the loss of special status as=
sociate with being a Mac user now that Apple is a CE giant. Oh please.
<Snip>
<Snip>
he sophistication of the off-the-shelf offerings is a direct resut of comme=
rcialization of early individualized efforts and the explosion of the craft=
 brew industry.
<Snip>
<Snip>
t and the hobbyists have changed. I used to design and build audio equipmen=
t. Now I buy it. If I had to rely on people to keep doing what I did, well,=
 there wouldn't be many choices. No market can survive long in pioneer mode=
 alone. It needs to grow. And growth implies more ready-to-use solutions. S=
o, yes, by all means, let's encourage the pioneer inventor/developer, but t=
he reality is that market success is possible only when we eventually get p=
ast that as the primary development mechanism.
<Snip>
<Snip>
ore novices in, to make it easy to roast. And we need more graduates of Beh=
mors to bring $15k roaster prices down to $4500. We get that only with a bi=
gger market. I enjoy the heck out of my Behmor. With all the workarounds an=
d profile overlaps, and blending, I get some stuff that I just cannot buy a=
nywhere. And all this workaround and the original inventiveness is great fo=
r learning.
<Snip>
<Snip>
to roaster that I can plug into a 20-amp circuit, and start using after ord=
ering it 2 days earlier through Amazon prime.
<Snip>
<Snip>
ote:
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
weetmariascoffee.com
<Snip>
coffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
<Snip>
<Snip>
eetmariascoffee.com
<Snip>
offee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
<Snip>
<Snip>
etmariascoffee.com
<Snip>
ffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
<Snip>
<Snip>
tmariascoffee.com
<Snip>
fee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
<Snip>
<Snip>
mariascoffee.com
<Snip>
ee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetma=riascoffee.com
Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820

8) From: Rich
Greg:
There is much money sitting on the sidelines right now. It is probably =
going to continue to sit too. It would be very tough to show any =
potential growth curve for a small pro-sumer roaster in the under =
1000.00 range, over that there is probably next to none. Just like the =
early VCRs, the price had to come down to under 600 or so before they =
actually took off. It would be impossible to make a case for =
idiot-consumer-proof with a 1-2k electric fired drum roaster similar to =
the Quest.
On 07/17/2011 06:21 PM, Greg Hammond wrote:
<Snip>
ts that made huge sense that had many obstacles.
<Snip>
 I do, I go to market both wholesale and retail for it. Granted, there is a=
 bit of a chicken/egg problem [yeah, I know, the egg came first], but many =
a product liability app is turned down because of the lack of “verifiabil=
ity” of safety, which might as well be read as “idiot-consumer-proof.=
”  At some point, the small firm that relies on bootstrapped resources ca=
n be too easily thwarted.
<Snip>
r insurance. What it’s waiting for is proof of market. I had lunch with s=
everal VCs the other day. Now, of course, they weren’t thinking about sca=
led down home coffee roasters, but they were thinking as investors. They al=
l said the same thing: “Cost be damned; show mer the growth curve, and co=
sts can be brought in to line.” I.e., amortization across a growth market.
<Snip>
 sanity of a foreign court.
<Snip>
 was.
<Snip>
 a crescent type adjustable wrench with a small valve wrench on the other e=
nd. You will note that it is not on the market. The patent was in hand, the=
 design was done but the liability insurance was the end of it. A large too=
l company offered to buy the patent for pocket change though. Product liabi=
lity insurance for a new unique product is near impossible to buy. There is=
 none on the Quest and all they are depending on is the possible sanity of =
a foreign court. And I was thinking an electrically heated roaster, not gas=
 fired, so it could be used indoors. And to install any propane appliance y=
ou had better be in 100% compliance with the NFPA if the fire inspector dec=
ides that the apliance started the fire. A non-aproved solid fuel appliance=
 will be inspected by most insurance companies before writing a policy and =
it better meet the NFPA code to the letter for solid fuel. I can go buy an =
approved wood b
urner at he big box but if my homeowner installation is not to code I bette=
r not burn down the house with it. In most jurisdictions you need a real bu=
ilding permit to install one anyway.
<Snip>
nt has to be amortized, and insurance is not free, though in the soft P&C m=
arket, highly unlikely to be the ratio you suggest. In fact, without knowin=
g the market, we cannot possibly know the amortization ratios. There are pl=
enty of examples of high risk first stage product that go though similar ch=
allenges. Propane is a routine and dangerous fuel base, widely used everywh=
ere. So is gasoline. I have a grille with a propane starter but is capable =
of burning wood up to 800 degrees. Plenty of wood stoves. Millions of natur=
al gas devices. The tedium of amortization and insurance are well known.
<Snip>
ns the big challenge. Without a market, Insurance and R&D amortization risk=
s can be theoretically infinite.
<Snip>
ity insurance costs. The 1-2Kg roaster that could sell for 500-750 will be =
more like 4500-4750 and up due to these costs. No liability insurance compa=
ny will provide coverage for an untested, brand new design device that is c=
apable of taking 2 to 4 lb of a highly combustible material to 500F in less=
 than 10 minutes with a forced or induced draft. You would have better luck=
 if you installed an automatic 50lb CO2 fire suppression system on it but n=
ot much.
<Snip>
des fire insurance is very difficult if you have a solid fuel appliance in =
the building.
<Snip>
 enough "can do" to go around), but I tend to see the overall issue differe=
ntly.  This sounds so much like the audio industry--"whatever happened to p=
eople willing to study and build their own tube amps?"—or cars (whatever =
happened to people who could change their own oil or actually work on their=
 engine?).  I even read an editorial bewailing the loss of special status a=
ssociate with being a Mac user now that Apple is a CE giant. Oh please.
<Snip>
the sophistication of the off-the-shelf offerings is a direct resut of comm=
ercialization of early individualized efforts and the explosion of the craf=
t brew industry.
<Snip>
et and the hobbyists have changed. I used to design and build audio equipme=
nt. Now I buy it. If I had to rely on people to keep doing what I did, well=
, there wouldn't be many choices. No market can survive long in pioneer mod=
e alone. It needs to grow. And growth implies more ready-to-use solutions. =
So, yes, by all means, let's encourage the pioneer inventor/developer, but =
the reality is that market success is possible only when we eventually get =
past that as the primary development mechanism.
<Snip>
more novices in, to make it easy to roast. And we need more graduates of Be=
hmors to bring $15k roaster prices down to $4500. We get that only with a b=
igger market. I enjoy the heck out of my Behmor. With all the workarounds a=
nd profile overlaps, and blending, I get some stuff that I just cannot buy =
anywhere. And all this workaround and the original inventiveness is great f=
or learning.
<Snip>
uto roaster that I can plug into a 20-amp circuit, and start using after or=
dering it 2 days earlier through Amazon prime.
<Snip>
wrote:
<Snip>
he
<Snip>
it
<Snip>
us
<Snip>
it
<Snip>
or
<Snip>
sweetmariascoffee.com
<Snip>
scoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
<Snip>
weetmariascoffee.com
<Snip>
coffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
<Snip>
eetmariascoffee.com
<Snip>
offee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
<Snip>
etmariascoffee.com
<Snip>
ffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
<Snip>
tmariascoffee.com
<Snip>
fee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
<Snip>
mariascoffee.com
<Snip>
ee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetma=riascoffee.com
Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820

9) From: Greg Hammond
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10) From: Jim Gundlach
Here is a theory on the root of bright people going in to law and an excess of lawyers creating a barrier to innovation.  There is a French psychologist who found that children are highly variable in the age that actually doing quantitate thinking is possible, thanks to the bugs that hit my brain a couple of years ago I cannot recall his name.  Bright children who are forced to do math before their brain has matured to where it can actually do mathematical thinking learn that they cannot do math and that lesson actually limits their learning math when they are able.  The age they reach math ability is not related to overall intelligence. They then seek a career that minimizes doing math.  It is my experience that attorneys generally have a history of avoiding as much math as possible.  One of our daughters, the one we got when she was 13, so we were not present to keep her from being taught math too early, is a math avoider who married another math avoider and they both became attorneys. They had a daughter but we made sure she avoided doing math until she passed the quantitative thinking test.  That test consists of pouring water back and forth between two containers, one short and fat and the other tall and thin, that hold the same amount in front of the child and then asking the child which one holds the most.  When the child stops saying that the tall one holds the most and instead of actually answering the question asking for a wrong answer, says they hold the same amount, their brain is ready to learn math.  These two anti math attorneys had a daughter but, thanks to knowing about this research, they made sure she was math ready before she took any.  This granddaughter was selected to represent her school, one of the state's top three in standardized test sores,  in the state math competition.
She is different in one other way, she will only drink SweetMaria's coffee, her parents will drink anything.
    pecan jim
On Jul 18, 2011, at 3:01 PM, sci wrote:
<Snip>
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11) From: Michael Vanecek
What did you use to insulate your drum housing?
Be well,
Mike
-- 
Zone 8, Texashttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/organichomesteading/http://www.naturalbeefarm.com/ Natural Beekeeping">http://www.taroandti.com/Exotic Plant Info and More...http://groups.yahoo.com/group/organichomesteading/http://www.naturalbeefarm.com/ Natural Beekeeping
On 07/18/2011 03:01 PM, sci wrote:
<Snip>
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12) From: Robert Yoder
Hi Jim, Would you be thinking of Piaget?  Interesting that you remembered nationality! best regards, robert yoder
 > From: pecanjim
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13) From: Jim Gundlach
On Jul 18, 2011, at 6:06 PM, Robert Yoder wrote:
<Snip>
Yes that is him.
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14) From: Barry Luterman
Piaget?
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 3:55 PM, Jim Gundlach wrote:
<Snip>
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15) From: Lynne
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 11:27 PM, Greg Hammond  wrote:
<Snip>
Haha - excellent!
Now - it *couldn't* be that I passed on my math phobia to my kids, now could
it?
Lynne
*(who is not a lawyer, nor a good math student...)*
-- 
*http:this-isnt-paris.blogspot.com
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16) From: Greg Hammond
LOL Lynne!
On Jul 18, 2011, at 21:03, Lynne  wrote:
<Snip>
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17) From: g paris p
Ivan:
do you have a picture of your insulation job? loe to see it.
ginny
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 1:01 PM, sci  wrote:
<Snip>
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18) From: Phil Palmintere
Max Planck, the Physicist who won the Nobel Prize in 1918 and who is the
founder of Quantum Theory, and for whom Planck's Constant is named, famously
wrote that at an early academic age he was interested in economics and law
but found it too confusing, so he went into Physics instead.
****
<Snip>
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