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Topic: "NO" to kopi (7 msgs / 308 lines)
1) From: bbyford
I'm new to the list, and I'd like to say I've learned enough from the recent posts to make me not want to fund this market. I agree that posting about the subject perpetuates curiosity, but that's a good thing. It makes me want to verify the claims about caging etc. It doesn't perpetuate a sale by any means. At least not to me. 
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2) From: g paris p
bbyford:
new to the list or not, no big deal. no one is asking you to FUND any
market. "posting about the subject perpetuates curiosity." NO, it cannot be
true bbyford!
I am sure there are members who LOVE kopi but all the sales talk in the
world doesn't perpetuate a sale as you so clearly mention.
could you please repeat what you said?  I am not clear on your actual
position on with this clear violation of animal rights.
thanks,
ginny
On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 8:25 AM,  wrote:
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3) From: Brad Byford
If you buy the coffee, you're funding the Kopi market, so what I'm saying
is: From what I've read so far, I wouldn't buy this coffee because of how
its popularity has led to the mistreatment of the Civet. The post I was
referring to was the one about "saying no to kopi" by Ed. He said " Even if
we inform about the caging, poor quality and scams of kopi with no kopi I
wonder if we are still perpetuating the curiosity." I should clear things up
by saying: I want to see every post, because to me, all the opinions are
valuable. I don't want the thread locked in other words. I'm not an animal
rights advocate, because I believe in a hierarchy of nature. Animals eat
vegetation, I eat animals. But force-feeding a Civet in a small cage without
killing it to harvest its meat (and/or other parts) is inhumane. It lives
there suffering. I don't like that. So I don't support it. I don't have a
problem with harvesting livestock as long as the death is quick and
painless, and their parts are not wasted. That's not to say I have a problem
with the choices of my vegan friends either. I just want some of my protein
to come from meat. I think it's healthier to not rule it out completely. But
I'm now going off topic if I haven't already. 
Brad

4) From: g paris p
Hey Brad:
Thanks for the reply.
I agree. To force feed an animal what it does not eat naturally is simply
wrong! Period.
Tom wrote an interesting piece with pictures on the forum.http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f2&tE4&sid3d9ed25b0fd7ec82da4933a724004a7&p425#p13425ginny
On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 8:40 PM, Brad Byford  wrote:
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5) From: Brad Byford
Thanks for the link. One of the posts had a link to the New York Times
article which seemed to lack information about the fact that civets are
omnivores which lean more to the carnivorous side of the fence. I can see
why they try to stay semi neutral on the subject, but you'd think that a
news organization like that would try to be at least a little more factual.
If I ever get the hankering to try the stuff, you can bet I'll travel to the
Cordillera myself and go poop hunting in the wild, and get about 12 oz to
throw in the Behmor at home after a good washing. In reality, that's never
gonna happen, but the novelty would be there, and it'd make a more
interesting "bucket list" entry.
Brad

6) From: Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
I don't mean to me all "activist" and such, but I created this 
facebook page 
(https://www.facebook.com/pages/No-to-Kopi-Luwak-Coffee/269009553115596) 
for the exact reason you are stating. I keep reading articles that 
fail to mention that a. it really is awful coffee and b. it is 
straight out animal cruelty . Really, not being touchy-feelie about 
it. It is. Also, sites that review it have a bunch of dorks saying 
what amazing coffee it is. Don't people think at least one reputable 
coffee company would carry it, if it was so good? The other thing I 
get is tons of solicitations of it on Facebook and email from farmers 
who think its their economic salvation. It's very wrongheaded. They 
don't do a good job with their normal coffee, and think Luwak will 
make them prosperous. It's just a big distraction, but I think (kinda 
opposite to what Ed proposed) I think we actually need to say NO to 
it, not ignore it. So anyone with FB, please visit the page and 
"like" it.
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-- 
-Tom
Sweet Maria's Coffee  -  Oakland, California  - http://www.sweetmarias.comHomeroast mailing list
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7) From: Edward Bourgeois
This is one of those extremely complex situations involving food,
farmers and scammers.
Kopi Luwak is marketed to the global elite, similar to shark fin soup.
It may have had a humble start and may even have some medicinal uses
or may not be a good thing to be drinking.
From what I've heard, farms producing Kopi like the Doi Chaang
Plantation in Thailand http://www.doichaangcoffee.com/are far more
famous than El Injerto or Esmeralda Gesha. Kopi marketing is intense,
far beyond Gesha. It's offered by many well known roasters/shopshttp://londiniumespresso.com/products/kopi-luwak You can also buy a
fancy bag in a fancy box and get a bonus of a turd in Lucite paper
weight for the office.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk8_HabWkW0Does it taste bad?   Relative to what? When in Kona I had to find
someone local harvesting at a beach to have a teaspoonful of fresh sea
urchin eggs.
 Some cuppers who have had the best real stuff find interesting
qualities. Some say after drinking it you develop a pooish body odor.
Some say it helps with asthma. Does any of this even matter as long as
it has been elevated to the "most expensive coffee in the world"
The serious problem is it's elevation to a global elitist market. This
makes it extremely vulnerable to every possible scam including cruelty
by caging and the human cruelty of possible health risks processing
it. Along with the dangers of getting who knows what for a product in
the bag.  With the global internet it is now out of control. Every
Kopi discussion on a coffee forum now surfaces a new member from the
far east defending Kopi and also offering some. Oh yes me and my
sister collect it ourself. It takes much time and we careful process
it and roast it in our wok on fire of rice stalk. PM me. I give you a
deal my friends. Just send me $$$ Western Union.
Can we stop this?  Sadly, probably not. It is the curiosity of it now
being an elitist food item that is problem. To make people aware of
the caging and exploitation may help a few stay away from it
altogether but others may just try to seek the elusive free range real
stuff. Many coffee geeks I know have tried it. I even know someone who
offered Jacu a few years back which at least has yet to climb to elite
status and probably has yet to be caged. I passed on it as I have
Kopi.
It's frustrating to be in such a situation. Food and farming in the
public mind is really really screwed up as it is. Groups like PETA try
the shock and awe approach. Frankly, I don't think this works in any
type of war. Monsanto claims GMO's are the only truly sustainable
foods future. Fighting that put you in jail in some states. Nothing
beats a "good" education and with kopi it is a rather complex one that
in my pro. experience with food consumers can easily allow a little
curiosity to eventually win out thus perpetuating the trade, scams and
cruelties. I've yet to find a really proper complete article on Kopi
worth using as an educating link. Sadly I have no answer to this
really complex issue. I just tend to focus on educating what I know is
good coffee, foods, farmers, farming  and  business. Hopefully, such a
foundation will help when someone is exposed to such a bizarre product
as Kopi Luwak or any other coffee or food offering in making a good
decision.
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 3:51 PM, Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
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-- =
Ed Bourgeois aka farmroast
Amherst MA.http://coffee-roasting.blogspot.com/Homeroast mailing list
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