HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Distilled H2O (91 msgs / 2955 lines)
1) From: Raybob Bowman
Just wondering how many on this list brew coffee with distilled water..  
Many years ago, I used to drink mucho beer.  I stopped that and began 
drinking mucho coffee, all the time.  I found out getting whole bean and 
grinding just before brewing made it better.  Then I found a 'gourmet' 
coffee shop and got better beans.  At that shop, I mentioned using 
spring water making it better.  She said try distilled.  There's 
absolutely nothing bonded to the atoms yet, so it pulls more flavor from 
the beans.
I found she was SO right.  Not only that, the health benefits of 
distilled water cleansing everything out of your body as you drink it.  
That was in '91 I began using distilled H2O for coffee, then later for 
all food prep especially boiled noodles, beans, etc., that normally fill 
up with all the stones (minerals) in the condensed boiled tap water.  
Now I can eat heaps of spagetti and never get that bloated feeling.  As 
for health, I haven't needed to see a doctor since '91, I'm turning 58 
this year and am far healthier than I was at 38.
Additional benefit, I can have a cup before bed, still sleep like a baby.
Raybob
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2) From: J3R
On 13-06-03 01:54 PM, Raybob Bowman wrote:
<Snip>
I asked this same question on the list last year, since I distill all my 
water for cooking and drinking (and brewing). The consensus was it 
"doesn't taste as good", and this is similar to what you see people 
writing on the net. People are used to the particular taste of tap water 
(in contrast to distilled which has no taste at all), and they seem to 
miss it when it is gone.
For me, I want my coffee to taste like coffee, not the impurities in 
water, but hey, it is a personal choice.
All I need to know about water quality is what is left after you do a 
batch of distilled water... it is disgusting, and knowing I am not 
eating that brown sludge is good enough for me.
Jer
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3) From: Sandy Andina
Depends on how good your tap water tastes (whether or not you filter it) or if you use bottled natural spring water as I do for my espresso machine.  I tried distilled water for drip, and the coffee tasted flat--I have good tap water and I use it filtered for drip.  Never use distilled in an espresso machine, since both auto-boiler refill and tank sensors need a trace of minerals to detect water.
Peace & Song, 
Sandy Andina
www.sandyandina.com
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4) From: J3R
On 13-06-03 07:00 PM, Sandy Andina wrote:
<Snip>
I will just add that I have used distilled water in my Behmor Brazen, in 
my Lelit espresso machine and in my Gaggia platinum vision (and 
aeropress, syphon machine, tea, etc) for over a year and I have had no 
problems. YMMV.
Jer
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5) From: miKe mcKoffee

6) From: ricky carter
for my money, the harder the water the better for brewed coffee.   boiling
makes the hardness just right.
it is kinda rough on the tea kettle though...
On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 7:50 PM, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>
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7) From: Dennis True
I use tap water run thru a Brita Filter and that works great for me...
On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 8:35 PM, ricky carter  wrote:
<Snip>
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8) From: Mike Chester
Since I bought my La Marzocco GS-3, I have only used RO water which is close 
to distilled purity. My coffee is the best that I have tasted and I have no 
issue with the auto fill on either boiler. I have never flushed the boilers 
and I recently had it gone over by a professional shop for a basic tune-up. 
The tech said that my boilers looked like new and had no residue in them. It 
is not broke, so I am not going to fix it.
Mike

9) From: Michael Mccandless
Here in Chandler AZ we get a free meal with every glass.
RO water works great - I add a touch of tap water to the Gaggia to prevent
(limit) bubbles from forming in the boiler.
MikeMc
On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 5:38 PM, Dennis True  wrote:
<Snip>
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10) From: miKe mcKoffee
Interesting Mr. Chester. FWIW La Marzocco water specifications are (cut &
pasted from LM website) as follows:
La Marzocco USA Water Specification
Optimally, the water for the espresso machine should have the following
properties:
Total Dissolved Solids 150 ppm
Total Hardness 3-5 gpg
Total Alkalinity 80 ppm
pH 7.0 gpg
Calcium Hardness 3-4 gpg
Total Chlorine <0.1 ppm
Free Chlorine <.05
Total Chlorides <30 ppm
Total Iron 0 mg/L
Silica not more than 5 mg/L
Sulfate 25-50 mg/L
Hydrogen Sulfide 0 mg/L
Manganese 0 mg/L
Nitrate 0 mg/L
End cut & paste. Note the TDS and total hardness. Definitely NOT distilled!
Also there is a HUGE difference between mineral content and impurities and
chemicals, i.e. sludge.
Slave to the Bean miKe mcKoffee
www.CompassCoffeeRoasting.com
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
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11) From: Frank Parth
My better half has a house in Lake Tahoe, on the Nevada side. I don't think I've tasted water that tastes better than that, and even she agrees it makes great coffee. I'm quite sure there are dissolved minerals in it but it makes for great taste. 
Frank
On Jun 3, 2013, at 4:50 PM, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
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12) From: John Nanci
Here here Mike.  I twitched when I read sludge.  Just because water 
has 'stuff' in it doesn't make it bad.  We live off of 'stuff'.  Just 
about the same twitch as reading that distilled water 'flushes' you 
out.  More power to you to not going to the doctor in years, or not 
feeling full from pasta cooked with 'pure' water, but the the amount 
of 'stuff' in standard drinking water is so small compared to the 
water, I just can't put any credence in it.  Sorry.  Heck, English 
ales are renowned for the body that minerals brings out (note I 
didn't say adds) in their ales.  I personally think the same is true 
of coffee.  Coffee brewed with mineral free water seems lacking.  And 
I happen to love the flavor of distilled and DI water - have always 
found it kind of sweet.
But as Mike say, it really only matters what you like.
John
At 07:29 PM 6/3/2013, you wrote:
<Snip>
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13) From: Sandy Andina
Best water I ever tasted was glacial runoff from a mini-waterfall in the parking lot just outside the Sunrise entrance to Mt. Rainier Nat'l Park. Wow! (and I grew up in NYC, where they bottle and sell their mountain-reservoir tap water as souvenirs). 
Sent from my iPad
Sandy
www.sandyandina.com
On Jun 3, 2013, at 10:39 PM, Frank Parth  wrote:
<Snip>
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14) From: Sandy Andina
But nothing tastes as good as drinking from the garden hose on a hot day after doing yard work!
Sent from my iPad
Sandy
www.sandyandina.com
On Jun 3, 2013, at 10:39 PM, Frank Parth  wrote:
<Snip>
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15) From: Janomac
Let's see...
There is and never has been anywhere on this earth that distiller water
exists for consumption or use by organisms. Whether you believe organisms
where placed here "as is" or evolved to what we see today, none are adapted
for use/consumption of "pure" (i.e. distiller) water. The minerals in most
waters of the world are actually quite beneficial to living things. These
minerals buffer the pH of the water and provide necessary minerals and ions
our bodies need. Taking them out of the water is an unnecessary use of
energy and adds little to no health benefit (unless you have the rotten
luck to live where your water travels thru uranium tailings)... In fact, if
you drink distilled water with no mineral load at all, you subject your
cells to osmotic influences unseen in nature. Distilled water is quite
unnatural and contrary to what our bodies have adapted to over many
millennia. Consuming more than a small amount of distilled water requires
addition of extra minerals in the diet. I'd rather drink my "sweet water"
(water from limestone aquifers) to get good tasting water with many of my
minerals in assimilible forms, than to spend beaucoup $$ on mineral
supplements, often in less assimilble forms.
I would also bet that water out of your still (distiller) is not exiting at
neutral pH (7), but rather, is probably acidic at around pH 6 (10x more
acidic than pH 7) to maybe 6.5. "Normal" mineralized tap water and
groundwater has a more basic profile at pH 7.2-7.8. If you are using
unbuffered distilled water in your coffee makers, you are likely leaching
metals from the boilers and tubing far far more than buffered mineralized
water (all that gunk you seem to dislike) and are added those metals like
chromium, molybdenum, copper, zinc, and whatever was used in the
welding/brazing/soldering rods during manufacture, plus plasticizers (in
plastic hosing or plastic holding tanks). I don't know about you, but I'd
rather have extra calcium carbonate, calcium sulfate, or a little extra
iron in my water--and by extension, my food and coffee-- than too much
chromium or similar metals. I use distilled water in laboratory settings,
but never offer it to my living critters. I only use distilled water in
borosilicate glass (we have measured leaching of silicates and sodium from
"flint" glass) or in laboratory grade stainless steel, which had harder
carbon steel and less chromium than consumer grade food stainless cookware.
Just sayin' that a little science goes a long way to help understanding
what our bodies need and how our taste buds respond.
Drink what you like, but don't dis the minerals in your water...your body
wants them.
Kirk (resident biologist and keeper of many critters)
On Monday, June 3, 2013, Raybob Bowman wrote:
<Snip>
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16) From: miKe mcKoffee
Ah the taste of a rubber hose, goes quite well brewing Robusta. :-)
Slave to the Bean miKe mcKoffee
www.CompassCoffeeRoasting.com
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
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17) From: michael kaericher
"All I need to know about water quality is what is left after you do a =
batch of distilled water... it is disgusting, and knowing I am not =
eating that brown sludge is good enough for me."
Interesting.   If you distilled your coffee, there would be brown sludg=
e.  If you distilled lasagna, there would be brown sludge.  Having pure=
 water at the end doesn't mean that what was there before would have tasted=
 bad.
That said, if you like it that way, go for it.
-Mike
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18) From: J3R
On 13-06-04 12:37 AM, Janomac wrote:
<Snip>
Except perhaps rain?
<Snip>
Interesting, but I believe it to be largely untrue from my research. My =
water pH is close enough to neutral, I have checked it more than once =
(because people keep saying that). The mineral question I also do not =
worry about since I take in water in many forms in foods, as we all do, =
and my diet is quite good. I am certainly not suffering from mineral =
imbalance. I have done my research, and the science I have seen does not =
agree that you need to supplement mineral intake. In fact, most sources =
I have seen state that the minerals in water are not even taken up by =
your body properly, that minerals are provided almost exclusively by =
food. Moreover, distilled water does attach itself to compounds and =
leach them, but not to minerals that have been incorporated into cells, =
it leaches disposed waste such as salts. In fact, most of the additional =
compounds in water we consider to be "healthy" are added during the =
treatment process.
"In terms of mineral nutrients intake, it is unclear what the drinking =
water contribution is. Inorganic minerals generally enter surface water =
and ground water via storm water runoff or through the Earth's crust. =
Treatment processes also lead to the presence of some minerals. Examples =
include calcium, zinc, manganese, phosphate, fluoride and sodium =
compounds.[10] Water generated from the biochemical metabolism of =
nutrients provides a significant proportion of the daily water =
requirements for some arthropods and desert animals, but provides only a =
small fraction of a human's necessary intake. There are a variety of =
trace elements present in virtually all potable water, some of which =
play a role in metabolism. For example sodium, potassium and chloride =
are common chemicals found in small quantities in most waters, and these =
elements play a role in body metabolism. Other elements such as =
fluoride, while beneficial in low concentrations, can cause dental =
problems and other issues when present at high levels." =http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinking_waterStudies have shown that large amounts of fertilizer and pesticide runoff =
from farming make their way back into the water supply. Levels of =
pharmaceutical drugs are found in all major water supplies. Hormones, =
radium, aluminum, copper, lead, mercury, cadmium, barium, nitrates... =
Fluoride and chlorine are both harmful and impart a bad taste. =
Radioactive particles are removed through distillation.
"In 2010 the EPA showed that 54 active pharmaceutical ingredients and 10 =
metabolites had been found in treated drinking water. An earlier study =
from 2005 by the EPA and the Geographical Survey states that 40% of =
water was contaminated with nonprescription pharmaceuticals, and it has =
been reported that of the 8 of the 12 most commonly occurring chemicals =
in drinking water are estrogenic hormones.[47] Of the pharmaceutical =
components found in drinking water, the EPA only regulates lindane and =
perchlorate. In 2009, the EPA did announce another 13 chemicals, =
hormones, and antibiotics that could potentially be regulated. The =
decision on whether or not they are sufficiently harmful to be regulated =
may not be decided upon until 2012 as it takes time for testing." =http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinking_water#United_StatesThe crap left in the distiller is foul and disgusting, it is not just =
"minerals" by a very long shot. The amount of dissolved minerals in =
water could never account for this mass. It is organic and inorganic =
waste, and it smells like it too. It stains the stainless steel. Unless =
you see this for yourself you don't get it. Go here and look at the list =
of allowable compoundshttp://water.epa.gov/drink/contaminants/index.cfm=
- you certainly get your minerals there! Antimony, arsenic, asbestos, =
and that is just the A's. Just the fact that these compounds are not =
entering my body makes my water healthier than normal people's, even if =
it is "stealing my mineral nutrients" or "disrupting my cells" or =
whatever the claim is, because arsenic for instance is not very kind to =
cells either.
Many many people drink distilled water, for centuries, without harm. =
RAIN WATER is distilled water. I don't think most people would try to =
tell someone that is unhealthy, other than maybe what it picked up on =
the way down. There are no minerals in rain water.
In fact most people I know who drink it think it far superior to any =
filtering system. The (non-) taste is desirable, the downsides are none =
that I have ever seen properly elucidated. There is lots of rumour and =
innuendo about it being dangerous, and while DHMO http://www.dhmo.org/)=
is indeed a dangerous substance, distilling it does nothing to make it =
more dangerous.
Water is H2O, nothing more, nothing less. If you want added junk in your =
water, that is great, I don't fault you for it, you have been told time =
and again that it is "healthy" for you. The fact that it is not is easy =
to demonstrate just with the selections I have included above and below, =
but I leave this as an exercise for the reader.
"A major Associated Press investigation now builds on his data. It =
reported yesterday that although lead remains a serious problem in =
school drinking water, it’s far from the only one. “The most frequently =
cited contaminant was coliform bacteria, followed by lead and copper, =
arsenic and nitrates,” AP found. Its reporters pored over a decade’s =
worth of drinking-water violations racked by the nation’s schools and =
compiled in an Environmental Protection Agency database."
"The Times’s research also shows that last year, 40 percent of the =
nation’s community water systems violated the Safe Drinking Water Act at =
least once, according to an analysis of E.P.A. data. Those violations =
ranged from failing to maintain proper paperwork to allowing carcinogens =
into tap water. More than 23 million people received drinking water from =
municipal systems that violated a health-based standard." =http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/13/us/13water.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all&Yours,
Jer
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19) From: Mike Davis
Any of us lab rats will tell you that boiling pure distilled water is 
dangerous as it can "bump" or "explode" for lack of particulate surface 
around which to form vapor bubbles.  Be very careful.  In a metal boiler 
chamber there should be sufficient surfaces to prevent that, but you 
never know.
Much municipal tap water is treated with chlorine which does not help 
the taste of coffee or anything else for that matter.  I run my water 
through a Pur charcoal filter that removes the taste of chlorine and 
many other impurities, but not all.  It would be rather expensive to 
brew with distilled water unless you have a still, in which case you are 
probably contaminating the water with impurities from the plumbing.
Mike Davis
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20) From: John Nanci
I could not even get through your post, but just had to comment on 
this (being a 20 year water chemist).  You have a very interesting 
way of interpreting that link - that those compounds are 
'allowed'.  The piece I don't think you know is that most of those 
nasty ones (like arsenic) the MCL is set at what current, common 
instrumentation can see.  The translation to that is that if they can 
detect it it's over the limit.  That's totally different from saying 
they allow 0.02 mg/L arsenic.  In the world of analytical chemistry 
you cannot say there can be none there as you can't prove the 
absolute absence.  You can only reasonably prove the absence to a 
certain level.  The same go for lead, cyanide and mercury to name 
just a few.  Those 'allowable' limits are no such thing in practice - 
they are as low as we can see which is as good you can regulate for.
And as for rain water being distilled water, I see where you are 
coming from but - um, ever heard of acid rain?  I've analyzed rain 
water and it does not hold a candle to the purity of real distilled 
water.  Great statement in theory, but it does not hold up in practise.
John
At 10:54 AM 6/4/2013, you wrote:
<Snip>
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21) From: J3R
On 13-06-04 02:18 PM, John Nanci wrote:
<Snip>
All I said is that rain is distilled water, and I did note it picks up 
contaminants on the way down, which is why I don't drink it, I drink my 
own homemade distiled water. However, the resident biologist stated that 
"There is and never has been anywhere on this earth that distiller water 
exists for consumption or use by organisms.", which I thought was 
leaving out an obvious source of distilled water that in fact all life 
on earth depends upon. I could also mention condensation on rock faces, 
on leaves, etc... I think distilled water is quite prevalent in nature.
To your measurement point, what you are saying is that the "allowable" 
level equates to the level of error of the measurement devices. That is 
all fine, but that still means you can be taking in small amounts of 
dangerous chemicals with every glass of water, many of which 
bioaccumulate. Seems to me it would be safer to try to eliminate these 
as much as possible, especially if there is no downside to doing so.
Jer
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22) From: miKe mcKoffee
You could also live in a bubble with purified air since most assuredly you
are breathing airborne contaminants as you typed...
Slave to the Bean miKe mcKoffee
www.CompassCoffeeRoasting.com
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
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23) From: J3R
On 13-06-04 03:03 PM, miKe mcKoffee wrote:
<Snip>
What I don't understand is the vilification of distilled water. People 
get really passionate about telling me I am hurting myself or my coffee 
or my coffee machines... and yet I can't seem to shake any actual facts 
out about why they believe this.
On your topic, since I breathe in contaminants why do I bother to eat 
well? I should just eat McDonalds all day. Why exercise? I am just 
breathing in more bad stuff. Just because I take steps to be healthy 
doesn't mean I want to be a bubble boy, I don't actually care much about 
germs at all, I have a strong immune system, but that doesn't help when 
dealing with the toxic soup I have already shown is in your and my water.
Just as another for-instance, we (in Montreal) just had a mandatory 
boil-water notice go out because of a mistake in a water treatment 
plant, over 3 million people had to boil all cooking and drinking water 
for days, and this is a major metropolitan area. If you feel secure that 
this does not occasionally happen without prior notice, then great, but 
I am not that blindly trusting of our water keepers.
I believe I have said what I needed to say, and despite differing 
opinions, this is one of the longest threads this mailing list has had 
in a while, so I suppose we have accomplished something.
Jer
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24) From: ricky carter
here's a whole ton of facts, along with taste test (which is admittedly
subjective to a certain point)
enjoy!http://users.rcn.com/erics/Water%20Quality/Water%20FAQ.pdfOn Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 3:18 PM, J3R  wrote:
<Snip>
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25) From: miKe mcKoffee
Don't believe anyone said anything about blindly accepting municipality
water. All my drinking water at home and at my coffeehouses is filtered. And
generally speaking we start with pretty good water in the Pacific Northwest.
And just to continue the fun gonna bring back your idea of naturally
occurring "distilled" water condensing on a rock. That rock is made of
minerals and hence (not a chemist so not 100% sure but logic dictates) that
condensing water on said rock will take on some of it's minerals! The purest
snow fed rushing stream from the highest most remote mountains contain
minerals from the particular rocks it's rushing over. It's nature's way of
giving us many of the minerals others have mentioned our bodies needing.
There is a HUGE difference between naturally occurring minerals in water and
things like chlorine or fluoride and other contaminants added by man and
industrial pollution. And most certainly depending on the "natural" water
source the particular mineral content may or may not be ideal for human
consumption.
Slave to the Bean miKe mcKoffee
www.CompassCoffeeRoasting.com
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
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26) From: Kirk Janowiak
Let me say, with respect to read each, readings, and general knowledge
about water and water quality... Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.
Fisheries science (with the associated discipline of water quality and
water quality management) are part of my professional training.
Two more comments & I am done:
1. Rainwater is NOT distiller, except in theory. Once the droplets
are nucleated or cohese to form falling drops, they are already laden with
carbon dioxide, lowering the pH to just below 6, and then dissolving into
solution any number of airborne pollutants that may be measured in parts
per thousand to parts per hundred! YMMV depending on location. Lowest
levels, as you might expect, are in Antarctica, but even there you'll find
ppm of DDT and a couple other organics. By comparison, arsenic (not the
scary toxin it is made out to be) in ground water in high arsenic areas is
measured in parts per trillion or billion. Too small for even an
accumulating agent to cause ill effects. I'd NEVER recommend drinking
rainwater over any but the rarest place I the continental 48. Make mine
deep limestone aquifer groundwater, please.
2. If your sources are stating that minerals in water are not taken up
properly-- and likely trying to get you to accept chelates minerals,
instead; you should be suspicious of the source.
<Snip>
but not to minerals that have been incorporated into cells, it leaches
disposed waste such as salts. <<
Nope. Osmotic potential does not ignore minerals. Sodium, potassium,
calcium, chlorides, carbonates, and others are carried by water in & out of
the cell; some through special membrane channels that are there just for
that purpose. You may call sodium a "waste" or "salt," if you like, but it
comes into you mainly as the mineral sodium chloride (a salt that is a
mineral).
Sorry...3rd comment. My point is that for most people in most of our
country, stuff dissolved in our water is not as bad for them as is often
reported. In some urbanized areas, taking out lead and organics is a good
idea, but low energy filtration will preserve the buffering capability of
the water that is lost through distillation and preserve the healthful
benefits of the dissolved minerals.
I say with others here, do what you think is best and what tastes best for
your coffee. We will just have to agree to disagree on the healthful
benefits of drinking distilled water.
Respectfully,
Kirk (resident middle of the roader)
On Tuesday, June 4, 2013, J3R wrote:
<Snip>
ry
<Snip>
be
<Snip>
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<Snip>
nt
<Snip>
ipedia.org/wiki/Drinking_water>
<Snip>
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<Snip>
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r.epa.gov/drink/contaminants/index.cfm>- you certainly get your minerals th=
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<Snip>
m/library>">Our
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetma=riascoffee.com
Sweet Maria's Forum
Our new Coffee Library

27) From: Raybob Bowman
Problem with bottled water is FDA has no standards for water.  They 
don't consider water a food, yet all food contains water.  Point is 
there is NO testing done for bottled water.  Anyone can start a company 
bottling any water they choose.  You would have to get a lawyer to find 
out if the water is really from the spring they say it comes from.  
Also, those plastic bottles they put it in will leach PCBs and other 
chemicals into your water when sunlight hits them.
Where I live, water comes right out of the well, totally unprocessed, 
but it contains so many minerals and things, it doesn't bond to coffee 
like pure water does.
Raybob
On 6/4/2013 10:00 AM, homeroast-request wrote:
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comSweet Maria's Forum
Our new Coffee Library

28) From: Dennis True
after that I think I will go pollute some water by heating it up and taking
some coffee beans ground up and mixing them together Who's with me?
On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 3:58 PM, Kirk Janowiak w=
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Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetma=riascoffee.com
Sweet Maria's Forum
Our new Coffee Library

29) From: Brian Kamnetz
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30) From: John Nanci
Sorry Raybob, that is totally not true.  I've tested bottled water at 
the lab I worked for and there were very extensive standards it had 
to meet.  It was a very expensive, lengthy set of tests, with very 
stringent sub-sampling and compositing requirements.
And PCB's?  No way. No how.  Where in the world did you get that 
information?  PCB's are not leached from any current food safe 
bottles (which much be used).  Phthalate - sure, but not PCB's.
John
At 01:07 PM 6/4/2013, you wrote:
<Snip>
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31) From: Raybob Bowman
On 6/4/2013 10:00 AM, homeroast-request wrote:
<Snip>
Ever since creation (or big bang if you believe that), H2O was pure.  
Until the 1700s, water was pure.  Ever since crude oil has been dug up 
and burnt into the atmosphere, air and water were pure. Now, air and 
water is contaminated.  Not like it was in 1700s or even early 1800s.  
Now, with all commercal jets burning billions of gallons of raw kerosine 
(JP4), air has become polluted around the world.  When it rains, ALL 
that pollution ends up in ground water.
Pure water should have absolutely NO taste whatsoever.
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32) From: Frank Parth
<Snip>
ed
<Snip>
ns
<Snip>
Or live where animals discharge their "waste" in the local stream or have t=
he bad luck to die in the stream. In the mountains this includes everything=
 from rabbits and squirrels to deer, elk, and other animals. And never drin=
k water where there might be cattle or sheep anywhere upstream.
I don't go camping without some way to purify the water. It's not worth the=
 dangers.
<Snip>
Frank
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33) From: Raybob Bowman
On 6/4/2013 10:00 AM, homeroast-request wrote:
<Snip>
FYI: You can't distill coffee.  If you put coffee, or anything in a 
distiller, the only thing that expands when it turns to steam is water.  
Whatever isn't boiled water remains in the still.  If you put coffee in, 
you get pure water out, coffee stays in still.
<Snip>
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34) From: Frank Parth
On Jun 4, 2013, at 1:40 PM, Raybob Bowman  wrote:
<Snip>
Sorry, not buying that. As long as there have been volcanic discharges, or even wind, the atmosphere has been filled with dust, minerals, and other pollutants. In other words, for billions of years. All of which get picked up by rainwater on it's way down. 
Frank
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35) From: michael kaericher
The point is simply that "contaminants" are not not all undesirable.  =
Again, if you like what you are making, go for it.  I like my coffee the =
way that I make it: with my local city water filtered through a carbon bloc=
k whole house filter.
-Mike
On 6/4/2013 10:00 AM, homeroast-request wrote:
<Snip>
? If you distilled lasagna, there would be brown sludge.? Having pure water=
 at the end doesn't mean that what was there before would have tasted bad.
<Snip>
FYI: You can't distill coffee.  If you put coffee, or anything in a =
distiller, the only thing that expands when it turns to steam is water.  =
Whatever isn't boiled water remains in the still.  If you put coffee in, =
you get pure water out, coffee stays in still.
<Snip>
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36) From: John Nanci
Hrm - maybe you should tell that to whiskey makers :)
At 01:45 PM 6/4/2013, you wrote:
<Snip>
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37) From: Greg Gearheart
The Broad Street Pump Coffee House in old London was well known for its
amazing range of flavors.
On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 1:40 PM, Raybob Bowman  wrote:
<Snip>
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38) From: Raybob Bowman
On 6/4/2013 7:18 PM, homeroast-request wrote:
<Snip>
Dude, I've been boiling distilled water usually twice a day for well 
over 20 years now.  I've never heard of such a thing.  As for "pure", as 
soon as it comes past the cooling coils where the steam returns to 
liguid, and enters atmosphere, it's no longer pure.  I use glass bottles 
but could never keep it actually totally pure.
Raybob
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39) From: Raybob Bowman
On 6/4/2013 7:18 PM, homeroast-request wrote:
<Snip>
That brings another point.  Just because the label says "Distilled" does 
NOT mean it is, when you read the fine print.  Some say made by 
distillation and ozonation.  If it's distilled, there's no reason for 
ozonation.  Look for "made by distillation" only.  Nothing I eat or 
drink ever hurts my stomach or keeps me up at night, but using bottled 
distilled that isn't "distilled" only, then I have problems sleeping and 
my gut doesn't 'feel' right anymore.
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40) From: Raybob Bowman
On 6/4/2013 7:18 PM, homeroast-request wrote:
<Snip>
I don't know the names of all the toxins that contaminate our foods but 
there are nasty toxic things in plastic bottles of every grade, that 
leach into foods and drinks.http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=plastic-not-fantastic-with-bisphenol-ahttp://www.livescience.com/5487-murky-truth-leaching-plastic-bottles.html">http://www.npr.org/2011/03/02/134196209/study-most-plastics-leach-hormone-like-chemicalsThis one speaks of BPAs:http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=plastic-not-fantastic-with-bisphenol-ahttp://www.livescience.com/5487-murky-truth-leaching-plastic-bottles.html
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41) From: John Nanci
Then this conversation is kind of pointless if you can't actually 
name the chemicals you are talking about, or worse mis-name 
them.  Between that, and your exaggeration (you clearly say every 
grade of plastic leaches and those links you provide clearly say 
some) I'm just going to be done with this conversation.
Be well.
John
At 12:24 AM 6/5/2013, you wrote:
<Snip>
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42) From: Mike Koenig
So, I'm jumping into this thread a bit late, after it's been beaten to
death already... but I will add my 2 cents anyway since it has caused some
list traffic for a change.
There were a few points mentioned that I will poke my nose into:
1.  Distilled water has a pH of 7 ONLY right after it is distilled.  Once
it's exposed to the atmosphere for a while, carbon dioxide will dissolve
and form carbonic acid, lowering the pH.  Very pure water will end up with
a pH of about 5.5 or so due to this effect.  If you are still seeing pH 7
in your distilled water, then you still have enough minerals in it to
buffer the carbonic acid, or your measurement technique is not very good.
 (and dont' trust your measurements unless you are doing them with a
calibrated pH meter).  I spent a lot of years testing high-purity water,
and you can clearly see this effect if you vigorously stir some recently
boiled purified water.
2.  I would not want to buy bottled purified water that was not ozonated.
 This is done to kill bacteria, and will dissipate long before you actually
get the bottle.  Yes, stuff will grow in pure water, and the taste of mold
is not at all appealing.  We used to find all sorts of stuff in our water
systems at work, including Pseudomonas (which can be a pathogen) on
occasion.
3.  Due to the pH effect I mentioned, and the lack of other dissolved
minerals, very pure water will be much more aggressive to the components of
your equipment, and can be a problem in espresso machines (in addition to
the previously mentioned non-functioning of the auto-fill).
4.  There is a tremendous amount of dubious literature out there regarding
water, primarily circulated by the manufacturers of "magical" water
purification equipment.  By far the worst is guy that claims he can cure
disease with his magical device that "changes the bond angle of water".
5.  If distilled/pure water was so good for you, and there were supportable
claims to be made for it, Coke and Pepsi would be all over that with their
gazillion dollar a year bottled water business.  Instead, they purify
water, then add some minerals back (which is additional cost to them) to
make their Aquafina and Dasani products.  Mainly because pure water tastes
lousy.
6.  A subjective data point:  I tried espresso with my RO water - it tastes
flat and dull.  I use calcite and magnesium oxide to add some minerals back
into my RO water.
--mike
On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 1:54 PM, Raybob Bowman  wrote:
<Snip>
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43) From: Frank Parth
On Jun 5, 2013, at 9:06 AM, Raybob Bowman  wrote:
<Snip>
<Snip>
 20 years now.  I've never heard of such a thing.  …
<Snip>
When I was studying chemistry back in college (many years ago) I was taught=
 the same thing. For water to boil there must be something for the bubbles =
to form on. =
Frank
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44) From: Andy Thomas
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45) From: John Nanci
I too am aware of this, but the catch here is =
that basically any household cookware, no matter =
how clean or new, will have sufficient surface =
imperfections to allow the purest water to =
boil.  In the lab, it's nearly all perfectly =
smooth glass.  But as someone else pointed out, a =
ceramic cup in the microwave, even will tap water, can superheat and 'explo=
de'.
John
At 09:02 PM 6/5/2013, you wrote:
<Snip>
e:
<Snip>
er
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
ariascoffee.com
<Snip>
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46) From: Phil Palmintere
I'm a regular RO drinker.  Just for fun, I've done side-by-side tasting of coffee made with RO water, tap water (Lake Meade's Finest), Costco bottled water (according to the label processed via RO and then subsequently minerals added for taste),  and 18 mega-ohm water. I used a clever coffee dropper. 
I can taste the difference - at least I think I can.  Surprisingly I prefer Costco water.  Both the RO water and 18 mega-ohm water are a tad bit flat by comparison.  Lake Meade water makes my home roasted coffee taste like coffee from a diner.
YMMV,
Phil
Sent from my iPhone
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47) From: Dennis True
I knew the RO's would make an appearance!  LOL I love how fired up the
experts get over this....
On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 2:29 PM, Phil Palmintere
wrote:
<Snip>
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48) From: Raybob Bowman
On 6/6/2013 10:00 AM, homeroast-request wrote:
<Snip>
That would go against their stockholder's main objective.  Surely you've 
heard of the Georgia Guide Stones ...http://prof77.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/georgia-guidestones-top-commandments.jpgHomeroast mailing list
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49) From: Raybob Bowman
On 6/7/2013 10:00 AM, homeroast-request wrote:
<Snip>
Great.  Now, for the topic, please do a comp with RO (or costco water) 
vs distilled.  :)
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50) From: Phil Palmintere
I tested with 18 mega ohm water, which is typically more pure than distilled.
See for examplehttp://www.ruf.rice.edu/~bioslabs/methods/solutions/water.html<Snip>
<Snip>
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51) From: Raybob Bowman
On 6/8/2013 10:00 AM, homeroast-request wrote:
<Snip>
led.
<Snip>
html
<Snip>
Not according to the link you just provided.. It says:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Distilled water, obtained from the condensation of steam, is of better =
quality because distillation eliminates all of the sediment and most of =
the inorganic solutes. Organic contaminants and some of the inorganic =
contaminants remain.
Deionized water is produced by running tap water through a resin =
cartridge or series of them. A home deionizing system might simply =
replace divalent cations with sodium ions, producing what is commonly =
known as “soft” water. Laboratory deionized water is usually treated so =
as to remove both cations and anions, which are exchanged for hydrogen =
and hydroxyl ions respectively. Deionized water is often of better =
quality than distilled water although on the downside, the resins used =
in the cartridges may release organic contaminants into the water.
+++++++++++++++++++
FIrst, I'd like to know just what "Organic contaminants and some of the =
inorganic contaminants remain", in pure H2O? Also RO doesn't remove any =
of the benzine in the tap water. How in the world, could you even sleep =
after drinking all that benzine? Again, could you, for all those that =
are curious, taste test coffee made with pure distilled water compared =
to your RO tap water? I know which is better but you won't even try?
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52) From: John Nanci
"all that benzine (sic)"  I just have to ask, all what benzene?  In 
15 years analyzing for benzene, I never found it once in water that 
was not a ground monitoring well (and not used for drinking).  As for 
what organics, usually those refer to THM's and HAA's - both 
disinfection by products of chlorination.   And all 18 mohm and RO 
systems I ever used had carbon filters also in place to deal with 
removing those low level organics.
John
At 05:50 AM 6/9/2013, you wrote:
<Snip>
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53) From: Mike Koenig
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54) From: Dave
He's made up his mind. Stop trying to confuse him with facts.
Dave
Some days...
It's just not worth chewing through the leather straps
On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 9:24 AM, Mike Koenig  wrote:
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55) From: Dave
He's made up his mind. Stop trying to confuse him with facts.
Dave
Some days...
It's just not worth chewing through the leather straps
On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 9:24 AM, Mike Koenig  wrote:
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56) From: Dave
He's made up his mind. Stop trying to confuse him with facts.
Dave
Some days...
It's just not worth chewing through the leather straps
On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 9:24 AM, Mike Koenig  wrote:
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57) From: Raybob Bowman
On 6/10/2013 10:00 AM, homeroast-request wrote:
<Snip>
When I lived in a friend's house in Pacifica, CA, homeowner got report 
periodically, of amounts of various things in the water. Benzine was on 
the list with measured amounts, as was bromine or bromide, don't 
remember what that was called.
Benzine is in air pollution from petroleum burning.  Rain brings that to 
ground water.  It boils at 120, not 212.  If you heat tap water and see 
steam before it reaches boiling temp, you have passed other boiling 
points for benzine and bromine, to name a few solubles that boil off 
before water does.  Bromine boils off at 145F and Benzine boils off at 
176F.  You can't pour water with soluble chemicals through any type of 
filter to make them get out of the water.  Only distillation separates 
them from the water.
<Snip>
Mike,
I believe my personal experiences (and my 96 year old deceased 
grandparents) have very much "extensive first-hand knowledge and 
experience in this field".  My internal scientific meter can tell me 
after at least 1/2 gallon that a water labeled "distilled" on the bottle 
has fine print that says "made from distillation AND ozonation".  My gut 
can tell that.  My grandparents had bottled water brought to them by 5 
gal bottles, ever since I can remember. In 1982, they bought their home 
distiller and used that soley until they had the nurse move in.  They 
were both very healthy at 96, when my dad treated them to a live-in care 
provider.  They were both dead within 1 year of that.  After they died 
is when my dad discovered the live-ins were not running the still.
Raybob
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58) From: John Nanci
GAHHHH - I thought I gave up...but now I really do.  No really.  It's 
just not worth the effort to try and educate someone of blatantly 
wrongs statements when they have a closed mind.
Enjoy your distilled water coffee.
John
At 01:16 PM 6/10/2013, you wrote:
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59) From: Dennis True
I Love a good debate on how Di-hydrogen Oxide is such a horrible thing
 after ll it can be used a a delivery system for Lead or Benzene just to
name a few... :-)
On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 4:16 PM, Raybob Bowman  wrote:
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60) From: Robert Yoder
That's what we get in our Melting Pot Society, Alchemist!  Some of our folks are Pre-Melted for our convenience.
 
Happy Roasting,
 
robert yoder
 
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61) From: Mike Koenig
"You can't pour water with soluble chemicals through any type of filter to
make them get out of the water.  Only distillation separates them from the
water."
Wow - so I suppose I was hallucinating the whole time when I observed the
purity of my laboratory water which had all the "soluble chemicals" removed
by membranes and deionization resin, or my water softener at home doesn't
really work either.   And the entire water purification industry has it all
wrong and is a huge scam.
This argument is futile and I can go no further..
--mike
On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 4:16 PM, Raybob Bowman  wrote:
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62) From: John Nanci
Mike,
Glad to hear that.  I was just about to offer you my place in front 
of the wall I was beating my head against.  It's no softer now, but I 
was going to offer nonetheless.
John
Alchemist - at large
Chemist - retired
Anti pseudo science curmudgeon - always
At 07:52 AM 6/13/2013, you wrote:
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63) From: miKe mcKoffee
I've heard the saying "ignorance is bliss", sometimes ignorance is just
ignorance...
Slave to the Bean miKe mcKoffee
www.CompassCoffeeRoasting.com
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
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64) From: Edward C Rasmussen
With all the information available from credible sources, it can only be called "willful ignorance."  
Generally, ignorance can be cured by study.  Stupidity is permanent. 
Ed

65) From: miKe mcKoffee

66) From: Mike Chester
There is no shame in basic ignorance; we are all ignorant about some things, 
but WILLFUL ignorance is something else entirely. This is when a person is 
presented with the proper facts from reputable sources and chooses to remain 
ignorant. Unfortunately many people in this country are now choosing willful
ignorance as a way of life. They prefer to not let facts get in the way of a 
good story. It has been said that a person is entitled to his own opinion 
(opinions are like "rectums," everyone has one) but no one is entitled to 
his own facts.
Mike

67) From: Mike Chester
"Beauty is temporary; stupidity is forever." - Judge Judy

68) From: Ira
Hello miKe,
Thursday, June 13, 2013, 8:38 AM, you wrote:
<Snip>
Are Curmudgeon points deducted for misspellings?
-- Ira
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69) From: John Nanci
Not in miKe's case where it is on purpose.  Haven't you noticed his use of K?
:)
At 09:54 AM 6/13/2013, you wrote:
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70) From: J3R
On 13-06-13 01:14 PM, John Nanci wrote:
<Snip>
Ah, I see, it is willful ignorance.
Jer
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71) From: John Nanci
In this case, I think it's artistic or creative license since he is 
not insisting you spell it his way or that your way is wrong. :)
At 10:19 AM 6/13/2013, you wrote:
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72) From: miKe mcKoffee

73) From: Edward C Rasmussen
I believe that spelling would be konsistent for someone known as the Kona Koffee Konnoisseur. 
Ed

74) From: Raybob Bowman
On 6/13/2013 10:00 AM, homeroast-request wrote:
<Snip>
Mike, if you mix sugar in water, it becomes sugar-water.  You can't 
filter out the sugar, it pours right through whatever is in that 
filter.  How can a membrane remove sugar?  Can you pee through those 
membranes and then deionize it, then make coffee with it?  I don't think 
so.  You might just do that, but there's no way I'd drink it. The ONLY 
way to remove solubles from H2O is by distillation.
Raybob
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75) From: Masa Jow
Raybob,
Of course, you're right about not being able to filter out the sugar with a course filter.  The 'filter' that I use for straining my pasta doesn't work.  But, have you ever used a water purifier?  If not at your house,  then surely, you've at least seen them at someone's house or in the store, right?  Brita?
Even dissolved in water, sugar is still sugar.  You can't see it, but, surely, you've tasted water with dissolved sugar, right?  It's still sweet, right?  You just can't see it.
On Jun 14, 2013, at 10:03 PM, Raybob Bowman  wrote:
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76) From: Dave
No Raybob, your wrong. The only thing correct in your last post is that you
make sugar water, by mixing sugar and water.
Dave
Some days...
It's just not worth chewing through the leather straps
On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 10:03 PM, Raybob Bowman wrote:
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77) From: John Nanci
Thanks Dave.  So far, I had resisted even putting my teeth on the 
leather straps.  But damn, they do look tasty :)
At 07:06 AM 6/15/2013, you wrote:
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78) From: sci
Reverse Osmosis RO can get virtually all dissolved solids, organic and
inorganic compounds, out of water. HOW? For those convinced that
distillation alone can do this, H2O is a tiny molecule. Few molecules are
tinier, and they are usually found as gasses. Even most atoms are larger.
This is fortunate for us. Dissolved solids, both organic and inorganic, are
larger molecules. When the water is run through a RO  filtration, it
catches the larger molecules and washes them away. All that gets through
the filter is the tiny molecule H20. This is how some desalinization plants
work. They take salt (and other compounds) out of seawater with RO.  This
process even works with gasses. To give you an illustration, think of sand
and marbles mixed in a bucket. Sand=water. Marbles=other compounds. Now
pour the bucket through a fine screen. The sand goes through, the marbles
stay in the screen. RO works in a very similar way, but under very high
pressure so that some water stays behind to flush away the dissolved
solids. This keeps the filter clean. It is self cleaning.
Taking sugar out of water with RO filtration would be very easy.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 22:03:37 -0700
From: Raybob Bowman 
To: homeroast
Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Distilled H2O
Message-ID: <51BBF5A9.7050107>
Content-Type: text/plain; charsetO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 6/13/2013 10:00 AM, homeroast-request wrote:
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removed
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all
<Snip>
Mike, if you mix sugar in water, it becomes sugar-water.  You can't
filter out the sugar, it pours right through whatever is in that
filter.  How can a membrane remove sugar?  Can you pee through those
membranes and then deionize it, then make coffee with it?  I don't think
so.  You might just do that, but there's no way I'd drink it. The ONLY
way to remove solubles from H2O is by distillation.
Raybob
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79) From: Raybob Bowman
Thanks for that explanation.  Always wondered how it was done.  Must be 
close to same as distilled H2O.  Must make great coffee too. :)
Raybob
1On 6/16/2013 10:00 AM, homeroast-request wrote:
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80) From: gin powell
you simply CANNOT filter out sugar in water, period. it is now part of the
water and not a solid you can filter...
sorry raybob.
ginny
On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 10:19 PM, Masa Jow  wrote:
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81) From: gin powell
sorry if I got the names backward, this discussion is backward, cannot be
done, ever, period.
-g
On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 6:49 AM, gin powell  wrote:
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82) From: Pat Sklenar
http://www.mntap.umn.edu/greenbusiness/water/5-MembraneFiltration.htmOn 6/18/2013 9:51 AM, gin powell wrote:
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83) From: John Nanci
Huh?  Are you being sarcastic Gin?
John
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84) From: Dennis True
according to the interwebs Gin is right....    to remove sugar from a sugar
water solution requires other processes that just filtering....
On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 9:51 AM, gin powell  wrote:
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85) From: ricky carter
the money shot from above link:
The ability to retain particles or molecules that are small enough to pass
through an ordinary filter is the key advantage of the membrane filtration
system.* As an example, a solution of dissolved sugar in water can be
separated into sugar and water by applying pressure across a membrane
designed with the proper pore size for the sugar. *
*
*
On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 10:15 AM, Dennis True  wrote:
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86) From: Steve Hamm
Please, folks, go read the wikipedia article on reverse osmosis. You
can desalinate water, you can remove water from maple sap (concentrating
the sugar), cut dissolved minerals, etc. etc. etc. Very flexible
technology. "RO filters" aren't like coffee filters or colanders.
Now, can we move back to discussing coffee? I roasted some SM's Cafe Pulcal
(Guatemala) over the weekend, and find that I'm really enjoying it.. but
I'm afraid my palate is locked onto Guatemalan bourbons.
I don't often try African beans -- and I'm not much on the dry process
beans I've tried. So, if I really like Guatemalan bourbon/caturra beans,
what should I look at from Africa?
--Steve
On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 9:15 AM, Dennis True  wrote:
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87) From: John Nanci
And just what pray tell are those 'other processes'?  What I see is 
filter, pressure to use the filter (note, you can't filter anything, 
ever, without pressure) and spaces on both sides of the filter.
Bringing this to coffee, we filter drip coffee with paper or metal 
filter.  Water is applied to one side with the grounds we with to 
filter out.  Gravity supplies the force.  Filtered coffee comes out 
the side opposite the force.  You can't filter coffee in space, due 
to the lack of gravity, without applying  an outside force, but do so 
does not mean you are using other processes than just filtering.
John
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88) From: gin powell
Steve:
I am not sure why a convresation about filtering is so upsetting to you.
makes for continued education in coffee, water, filter knowledge.
ginny
On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 7:37 AM, Steve Hamm  wrote:
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89) From: Seth Grandeau
Since distill water, bottled spring water, filtered tap water and plain old
tap water are all relatively available.  Maybe we should each try to make
coffee with each of these ingredients, using the same beans and brewing
method, and report back our findings.
On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 2:18 PM, gin powell  wrote:
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90) From: Phil Palmintere
<Snip>
close to same as distilled H2O.  Must make great coffee too. :) Raybob 
OK, now back to tasting coffee --- I performed side-by-side comparisons of
coffee made with tap water (Lake Mead's finest -- quite hard), Costco's
bottled water, RO water, and 18 megaohm water (highly purified --
essentially no detectable dissolved solids, and as such, it is actually an
electrical insulator rather than a conductor -- manufactured on site at a
facility that operates a cyclotron to manufacture F18, an unstable
radioisotope of Florine with a 20 min. half life used in the medical
industry).
My preference was for coffee made with the costco bottled water - which the
label says is RO water with some minerals added back for taste (trace
amounts of potassium bicarbonate, sodium bicarbonate, calcium chloride and
magnesium chloride).  
Of course, since this is all subjective tasting, you may prefer something
else.  The coffee made with straight RO water, to me, is a bit flat.  It is
still good - just not as good as coffee made with a bit of mineral content.
YMMV
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91) From: miKe mcKoffee
Exactly the same conclusion about a bazillion and three have concluded over
the decades...
Slave to the Bean miKe mcKoffee
www.CompassCoffeeRoasting.com
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
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