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Topic: Turbo Crazy = Turbo Oven + Stir Crazy (25 msgs / 778 lines)
1) From: Ryuji Suzuki -- JF7WEX
From: "Mike McGinness" 
Subject: Re: Turbo Crazy = Turbo Oven + Stir Crazy (was: Turbo Oven Revisited)
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 16:05:05 -0700
<Snip>
What an honor... :-)
<Snip>
I don't have an answer for that. However, I filled that stirred
chamber with 520g of coffee beans and saw that stirrer works. The
stirring bar is just a straight wire scraping off the bottom. I should
fashion another one that is a coiled wire form or at least a zig-zag
wire shape so that I can stir both top and bottom of the bean
layer. (The wire is attached by a screwed cap so it's easy to change.)
With this modification, I expect the chance of getting a great roast
at that size is pretty high.
I just split 350g into two small glass jars... you don't need a huge
freezer.
Ryuji Suzuki
--
Ryuji Suzuki
"I can't believe I'm here.
People always say that I'm a long way from normal."
(Bob Dylan, Normal, Illinois, 13 February 1999)
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2) From: JKG
First, congrats on your success.  Second a question.
One of the things that you were hoping is that the roast 
would be more even with the Stir Crazy.  How is it on a 
scale of 1 to 10 (1 being very uneven and 10 being 
perfectly even)?
JKG

3) From: Ryuji Suzuki -- JF7WEX
From: "JKG" 
Subject: Re: Turbo Crazy = Turbo Oven + Stir Crazy
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 20:40:26 -0500
<Snip>
Forgot to say in my previous posting, but with 350g or less, the roast
is almost as perfectly even as I can expect. It's very even with
Fraijanes La Laguna and Kenya Lot 82. Also, there was a discussion on
how quiet KL82's second crack was, but I could clearly hear it (not to
mention, I immediately stopped roasting there). If you want to see the
number, I'd give it 9.5, leaving some numerical margin for possible
improvements in the future.
One thing to note is that beans expand very well with this roasting.
Cracks are nicely clustered in time with clear separation between
first and second cracks, also a good indication of very even
roast. This makes it easier to make nice light-medium roast without
risking contamination of underroasted beans.
--
Ryuji Suzuki
"I can't believe I'm here.
People always say that I'm a long way from normal."
(Bob Dylan, Normal, Illinois, 13 February 1999)
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4) From: Joseph A. Feliciani
Hi
My feeble mind seems to be having some trouble in seeing how you put these
two items together.  Would you be so kind as to post a picture or email me
one?  Your descriptions of the results are making me jealous!
Joe
WBPII - Bodum Antigua - *$ Proteo Barista - (espresso only)

5) From: Ed Needham
What a great concept!  Have you tried it with both the Turbo heater and the
Stir Crazy heat on at the same time (separate circuits of course)?  A larger
batch might benefit from the extra heat, and the 'pan fried' taste might add
complexity.  I may have to buy these things and give this idea a whirl.
Any ideas on a more elegant chaff collection trap or smoke removal?
Regards,
Ed Needham
ed

6) From: Ryuji Suzuki -- JF7WEX
From: "Ed Needham" 
Subject: Re: Turbo Crazy = Turbo Oven + Stir Crazy
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 00:40:11 -0400
<Snip>
One problems is that Stir Crazy must have its own thermostat which I
expect to go off at around 150C as other recent West Bend poppers. I
use it at a reduced power but it still adds some heat, as much as I
can roast nuts on it.
<Snip>
Silver skin collection is rather easy - put the whole thing in a
cardboard box. They will fly circularly and then go down, so if I put
the thing in a big box, they'll stay inside to be vacuumed. Smoke...
there won't be as much as hot air roaster (my guess), so all I need is
a window fan.
Ryuji
--
Ryuji Suzuki
"I can't believe I'm here.
People always say that I'm a long way from normal."
(Bob Dylan, Normal, Illinois, 13 February 1999)
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7) From: Ed Needham
I guess I am looking for a more 'built-in' design than a cardboard box and a
vacuum cleaner.  I wonder if a piece could be made to allow the Turbo to fit
more cleanly into the Stir Crazy.  It could also have a trap of sorts to
allow smoke to 'vent' and chaff to be trapped and easily dumped.  I think the
concept is wonderful, but having the Turbo sit unevenly on the Stir Crazy
handles, inside a box, and chaff flying all over the inside of the box and
machine doesn't appeal to me.  The idea of blending the two devices is solid
enough that a more permanent solution begs to be created.
Regards,
Ed Needham
ed

8) From: Ryuji Suzuki -- JF7WEX
From: "Ed Needham" 
Subject: Re: Turbo Crazy = Turbo Oven + Stir Crazy
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 02:14:48 -0400
<Snip>
My next plan was to use the metal exhaust pipe joints from Home Depot
to connect these two devices and create more space between so that I
can put a metal mesh trap for silver skin. Remember the air is flowing
circularly so making a trap should be easy. Smoke will leave throuh
Turbo Oven's heating assembly anyway. With this design, you might need
directed light source to see the color. Also, currently I don't know
how I can remove the bean without grabbing and dumping on my cooling
apparatus.
Chaff won't fly all over inside the box. It'll naturally sink.
I have some ideas but this current "barrack" setup works so well and I
can use them for other purposes (cooking food and roasting nuts) I
don't have urge to implement them immediately. (I have urge to save
money!) But if I indeed implement them, I'll let you know.
--
Ryuji Suzuki
"I can't believe I'm here.
People always say that I'm a long way from normal."
(Bob Dylan, Normal, Illinois, 13 February 1999)
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9) From: Ed Needham
Just make sure it's aluminum or stainless, not galvanized material.
Galvanized is not food safe and emits very toxic fumes at high temps.
Regards,
Ed Needham
ed

10) From: Ryuji Suzuki -- JF7WEX
From: "Ed Needham" 
Subject: Re: Turbo Crazy = Turbo Oven + Stir Crazy
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 15:45:38 -0400
<Snip>
I prefer to avoid aluminum if possible, but I don't understand "toxic
fume" from zinc, iron and other base or plated metals, especially
after initial dry run session. I suppose you are talking about food in
contact with galvanized metal pieces?
Ryuji
--
Ryuji Suzuki
"I can't believe I'm here.
People always say that I'm a long way from normal."
(Bob Dylan, Normal, Illinois, 13 February 1999)
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11) From: Ed Needham
Food in contact with galvanized, and fumes from heating galvanized are toxic.
Ask any welder or those that cut galvanized material.  I think they call it
'metal fume fever'.  Of course, it is worse when the galvanized is heated to
500+ degrees, but It should be looked at as a continuum.  Fumes from it can
be a very serious health hazard.  Severe fever, headaches, nausea, skin
rashes and much worse come from heating galvanized material.  Do a search on
the web about galvanized and you'll see nothing but dire warnings about the
fumes it puts off at high temperatures.  304 stainless or better would be
what I would use in contact with food.   I don't like aluminum either, but
aluminum is healthy compared to galvanized.
A couple of references... (not really good ones though...Sorry I don't have
the time tonight to search more thoroughly).http://www.msha.gov/S&HINFO/HHICM10.HTMhttp://www.msue.msu.edu/msue/imp/mod01/01600817.html
Regards,
Ed Needham
ed

12) From: Angelo
I have seen, somewhere, a spring driven motor which was attached to the top 
of a pot and which turned a rod with vanes at the bottom. This was a 
similar set-up as the stove-top roaster, minus the manual labor.
This device would work quite well(with modification, of course) as a 
stirrer in the Turbo oven.  The pan could be made to fit more deeply into 
the oven than the Stir Crazy does...
If any of you "engineer types" out there know of a place where these can be 
obtained, could you please post it..?
Come to think of it, someone on the list had a picture of a spring-driven 
coffee roaster on his web site....
Question: In general, how strong would a motor have to be to push a pound 
of coffee around the plate? How is this presented in the specs of the motor?
Thanks,
Angelo
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13) From: Ken Mary
Some foods used to be packaged in cans galvanized on the *inside*. I 
remember tomato soup and pineapple in particular, and these are acid foods
that will dissolve zinc. Common zinc supplement tablets contain up to 300 mg
(elemental) as zinc gluconate. Earl Mindell's "Vitamin Bible" was the first
book at hand as I compose this message. Zinc is described as virtually
nontoxic except when eating excessive amounts of food stored in galvanized
containers. Excessive intake is not recommended as zinc will displace copper
from the body.
Metal fume fever results from *inhalation* of fine particles produced by
vaporizing the metal as in a welding operation. Metallic zinc melts at 786F.
Its vapor pressure at 500F is about 0.1 mm Hg or 1/7600th of an atmosphere.
Let's assume that the Turbo Oven "contaminates" one cubic meter of air, and
that one would inhale this entire volume. One cubic meter of air at 500F
*saturated* with zinc vapor would contain about 400 mg of zinc. Under real
conditions, when cooled, the zinc would be a solid particulate suspension
with only some fraction being the requisite 1 to 10 micron respirable range
and only a fraction of this would enter the bloodstream in the lungs. BTW
one cubic meter of room temperature air weighs nearly 3 pounds. So I would
not worry about using galvanized metal as an adapter between the Stir Crazy
and the Turbo Oven.
To put things in proper perspective, some snips from the coffee FAQ:
"1. What happens when you overdose?
From Desk Reference to the Diagnostic Criteria from DSM-3-R (American
Psychiatric Association, 1987):
Caffeine-Induced Organic Mental Disorder 305.90 Caffeine Intoxication
1. Recent consumption of caffeine, usually in excess of 250 mg.
2. At least five of the following signs:
1. restlessness
2. nervousness
3. excitement
4. insomnia
5. flushed face
6. diuresis
7. gastrointestinal disturbance
8. muscle twitching
9. rambling flow of thought and speech
10. tachycardia or cardiac arrhythmia
11. periods of inexhaustibility
12. psychomotor agitation"
"Toxic dose
The reported lethal dose is 10 grams."
Therefore, the amount of coffee beans roasted in the apparatus contains
about *half the lethal dosage* of caffeine.
--
----------
<Snip>
<Snip>
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14) From: TFisher511
When I reread my posts I see a lot of 9 and sometimes 12. Now I am beginning 
to understand. WOW Mike.........no, I better not even go there. Not even just 
kidding around I won't go there.
Terry F
kdmary writes:
<Snip>

15) From: Timothy A Reed
On Sun, 28 Apr 2002 12:13:21 -0400 "Ken Mary"  writes:
<Snip>
Just for the record, I have been there.  It is decidedly *not* fun!! 
Those nervous muscle twitches make it really hard to use your mouse. :)
Even so, I think they must have a screw loose about dosage.  250mg is
about 3 cups of coffee (or two double espressos).
-Tim
In your heart you wonder which of these is true
The road that leads to nowhere
The road that leads to you
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16) From: JB Christy
<Snip>
10 grams of caffeine is lethal?  Apparently I actually *am* in heaven after
tossing back that mellifluous brew.  Ahhhhh.... :-)
Thanks for the info on metals and caffeine.  Interesting reading.
--JB
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17) From: Ed Needham
Ken...
With all due respect, zinc as a mineral supplement and zinc as a metallic
coating are two very different things.  The same way iron supplements cannot
be taken by way of sucking on an iron piece of metal, zinc released from
metal coatings is a different than zinc in a supplement.
Many older type cans were made with a galvanized lining.  They even used them
for high acidic foods.  They also used to solder them with lead based solder.
They don't allow those things anymore because they have found them to be
health hazards.
I won't post on this topic again to avoid getting into a brawl, but I believe
I can safely say that galvanized material should not be used in contact with
food products.  Zinc leeches or erodes from the coating and contaminates
food.
Galvanized material puts off dangerous fumes when heated.
If someone here wants to use galvanized material in their roaster project,
then 'go for it'.  For myself, I am confident the evidence 'against' using it
is more than sufficient.
Regards,
Ed Needham
ed

18) From: Ryuji Suzuki -- JF7WEX
From: 
Subject: Re: Turbo Crazy = Turbo Oven + Stir Crazy (was: Turbo Oven Revisited)
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 20:30:17 -0500
<Snip>
This is exactly what I use and where I bought it from.
<Snip>
Yes, and that's about how much I paid for it. I heard you can buy one
for $30 but I never saw it myself.
<Snip>
I didn't write Turbo Crazy version yet, but see also:http://rs.cncdsl.com/Beverages/coffee-turbo-oven.html--
Ryuji Suzuki
"I can't believe I'm here.
People always say that I'm a long way from normal."
(Bob Dylan, Normal, Illinois, 13 February 1999)
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19) From: Simpson
Three roasts with the following set-up:
Turbo-roaster top (on top of)
Metal ring about 2.5 inches high (on top of)
Stir Crazy bottom.
Looks like this:http://mywebpages.comcast.net/tnjsimpson1/stirroaster1.jpgand offers an ok view of the roast:http://mywebpages.comcast.net/tnjsimpson1/stirroaster3.jpgTwo first roasts were done with 1/2 lb of Costa Rican, 1/2 lb of">http://mywebpages.comcast.net/tnjsimpson1/stirroaster2.jpgandhttp://mywebpages.comcast.net/tnjsimpson1/stirroaster1.jpgand offers an ok view of the roast:http://mywebpages.comcast.net/tnjsimpson1/stirroaster3.jpgTwo first roasts were done with 1/2 lb of Costa Rican, 1/2 lb of
Sumatran and the third 1 lb of Malabar Gold. The 1/2lb roasts used a
tiny piece of brass tubing over the wire for better stirring, as in:http://mywebpages.comcast.net/tnjsimpson1/stirroaster5.jpgResults were mixed. The CR and the Sumatra both roasted quicker than I">http://mywebpages.comcast.net/tnjsimpson1/stirroaster4.jpgandhttp://mywebpages.comcast.net/tnjsimpson1/stirroaster5.jpgResults were mixed. The CR and the Sumatra both roasted quicker than I
expected and went deeper into second crack than I desired. I have very
good electrical service and I think the turbo-roaster was almost not
needed as the stircrazy was running so hot! Next time I'll start out at
a lower temp with it. Cracks were easy to hear but there was a GREAT
deal of smoke as the chaff flew up into the hot coil. No way could this
be done indoors even with a very good vent fan.
The 1lb roast was done without the tubing since the vanes stalled with
the tubing providing extra resistance. It wasn't easy for the stircrazy
to turn with 1lb of beans. I had to manually shake the whole contraption
frequently and even so the roast was very uneven with a lot of charring
and tipping. MG is a toughy anyway but I have no trouble getting a
clean, even roast with my air roaster. My take on the stirroaster is
that it is just not a 1 lb roaster. YMMV, but I won't try it again. The
smoke was amazingly dense and literally drifted off my porch in a plume.
The chaff went everywhere when I removed the top to dump the beans for
cooling... it was quite a mess. I'm used to a chaff cyclone and the mess
was not worth it in the face of the poor roast.
Also the little black knob that holds the stirring wire on was taking a
beating from the turbo roaster heat:http://mywebpages.comcast.net/tnjsimpson1/stirroaster6.jpgThis combo, IMO, is a very good 1/2 lb roaster, though a bit uneven. It
is much cheaper than the proposed hottop drum and should serve some of
the same needs. Nice job Ryuji! Expect to replace the plastic knob and
somehow improve the stirring vanes for maximum performance. Only other
thing is I don't know how long the stir crazy motor will last under this
load.
BTW the metal ring was part of a cheesecake pan like sort of like this
one:http://www.bakingshop.com/sugarcraft/cakepansbottom.htmTed
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20) From: John - In Deep Southern Texas
Ted,
    It looks like the roaster wouldn't last too long with all that heat.
How hot does the StirCrazy get all by itself?  And what did the roast taste
like? Did it develop a charred tasted?
    Thanks for the very complete picture.  I think I'm going to stick with
my FR+ until I can get a rotisserie model built (low priority) unless of
course you plan to package your rig :O)
Good Cupping
John

21) From: Ryuji Suzuki -- JF7WEX
From: Simpson 
Subject: RE: Turbo Crazy = Turbo Oven + Stir Crazy
Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 20:02:18 -0400
<Snip>
Thanks! I'll look for these. It would be nicer to have some space to
build a chaff collector there...
<Snip>
As I said before, I turned down the voltage supply for the Stir Crazy
to 100V but run Turbo Oven at 120V. It seems a good balance for larger
batches, though I did not go below 100V (100V was the lowest I could
easily get). I even think I could cut the heater from the Stir Crazy
when I'm doing 200g batches.
However, my Stir Crazy isn't strong enough to make a decent even full
city roast by itself even if the batch size is 200g.
<Snip>
This sounds very different from my case. I see two or three burning
chaffs and I now roast in kitchen by the window.
<Snip>
That agitating rod needs some improvement for larger batches, though
should be enough for 350g or less, because 350g is about my routine
batch size and I have no trouble with it. I'm not sure if Stir Crazy
underwent minor change at some production lot.
<Snip>
With that bare wire stirrer, my beans agitated just enough, but
wouldn't be a very even roast like 200-350g batch.
<Snip>
I'll report when I get a picture of my agitator. The motor is strong
enough.
<Snip>
When I roast outside, I can't see smoke... something is not working in
the same way between us...
<Snip>
I've done dozen roasts but mine is still like new! I put my Turbo Oven
directly on top of the Stir Crazy, and I set it up to 250C when I'm
making French roasts.  I have nooooo idea where that difference came
from! But it might also be possible to find brass replacement.
Thanks for the nice pictures, I was hoping to put mine up, but have
been busy.  However, your result sounds much worse than my initial
try! Did you monitor the temperature profile?
Ryuji
--
Ryuji Suzuki
"I can't believe I'm here.
People always say that I'm a long way from normal."
(Bob Dylan, Normal, Illinois, 13 February 1999)
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22) From: Simpson
Snip
<Snip>
Ryuji, no I didn't. I just realized that I hadn't written back to tell
you that I think this combo has great potential as a 1/2 lb 'drum
roaster' (230 grams or so?). I'm going to try a slower roast profile on
the turbo-oven and will seek out a sturdier knob... a nut and a washer
would work. I applaud your creative thinking on this and other roasting
methods. I believe I'll be quite happy with this 1/2lb method when I've
worked the kinks out. More anon. Nice work, Ryuji!
Ted
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23) From: Ed Needham
Ted, Ryuji and list...
I saw a West Bend "Crazy 8" that is similar to the 'Stir Crazy' but larger.
I'm not sure if the motor or the knob are sturdier, but it might fit the
Turbo better.  It looks to be about 13" in diameter.  I saw a used one on
Ebay (sold for almost new price), but I believe they are available new.  Do a
search and you'll find several fairly easily.
Regards,
Ed Needham
ed

24) From: Ryuji Suzuki -- JF7WEX
From: "Ed Needham" 
Subject: Re: Turbo Crazy = Turbo Oven + Stir Crazy
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 01:21:11 -0400
<Snip>
I've seen that on the web but I did not know about the diameter. 13"
is a bit bigger than 12-3/8" diameter of Turbo Oven, but if you manage
to make a tube to fit both at the same time, it should provide you a
better base for larger batch size. (a speculative statement)
It seems that perfect fit is not the best way to roast coffee with
these two pieces -- some air exchange (with skins flowing out or
trapped somewhere) is desirable in maintaining low level of residual
smoke. I tried with about 420g Harar (a lot more skin than my regular
350g Brazilian, Mandheling or central Americans) with good fitting
collar and saw more-than-usual smoke. I simply put the Turbo assembly
a bit ajar on purpose and it improved a lot from then for that
batch. I'm planning to make a little slit on the side, possibly with a
silver skin trap and an adjustable aperture. If you do all these with
improved agitating rod and brass nut and washer, I bet you should be
ready to start pushing the limit of the batch size!
R
--
Ryuji Suzuki
"Don't play what's there, play what's not there." (Miles Davis)
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25) From: Ryuji Suzuki -- JF7WEX
By the way, my batch sizes... 350g, 420g, etc. have no scientific or
industry-practice reason why they are chosen so. I simply use empty
cups fo a couple of different sizes (after some empirical calibration)
to measure out coffee beans.
That 420g Harar batch was a bit uneven. I don't know if the roaster's
agitating ability is indeed responsible for that. I have to repeat
roasting with washed beans, but I would rather fabricate a better
agitator before potentially wasting quality coffee. One of my tire is
flat, and I have million other things to do this week so it's a slow
process but the semester is nearly over.
Is there anyone in Boston area who is willing to collaborate on this
project because I have few tools that can handle anything bigger than
circuit boards, cameras, and PC's. If someone can help me on the metal
work that would be... greaaaaat. (I know -- Bostonians like teas for
some reason :-)
Ryuji
--
Ryuji Suzuki
"You're crazy man, there's no one here but me and my machines!" (Neil Young)
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