HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Vacuum sealing (15 msgs / 395 lines)
1) From: Kevin DuPre
Rick,
Sorry for the confusion, if I may interject here
[again]. I agree with you on the volume of container
issue...
Technically there is no "amount" of vacuum - agreed
(my bad), but the larger the space in which the vacuum
exists, the greater the volume for any object inside
the vacuum which is outgassing to fill.  Let's say
we've drawn a high vacuum and the remaining pressure
is about 1 micron of absolute pressure, which is one
hell of a vacuum. Very little, if any oxygen exists
after that. Outgassing occurs at a rate proportional
to the pressure differential between the object that
is degassing and the surrounding vacuum. The rate is
also a function of the volume and the amount of
outgassing which has taken place to try and fill the
pressure void created by vacuuming. Decrease the
volume and the outgassing will stop sooner than with a
larger volume due to the external absolute pressure
surrounding the [beans] reaching equilibrium with the
internal pressure [of the beans], like might happen
with a vacuum sealed valvebag.
A mason jar, half to 3/4 full of just-roasted beans
with a vacuum pulled on it has a higher evacuated
volume than let's say a valvebag equally 3/4 filled
and evacuated.  Why? because as the bag is evacuated
it collapses in on itself thereby reducing the
residual volume containing the vacuum. Reduced in fact
only to the volume of space between the beans.  It
will take a very short time to fill that volume and
kill the vacuum, but the vacuum has been filled by the
protective CO2 envelope.
I guess some people roast larger volumes of coffee
where the concern for repeated vacuuming arises to
prolong freshness.  Myself, I typically roast 1/2
pound at a time which we use up in 4 days which seems
to be a day or two before the roast goes stale.
As someone else said and I agree with, the pleasure
derived from opening the bag and smelling the coffee
far outweighs the slight acceleration in staling by
exposing it to air.  But to use it, I have to expose
it to  air sometime :)
I find the whole discussion of vacuum interesting but
what I take away from it is that I have to do what I
can for those 4 days to minimize the amount of
continuous AIR contact with the beans which I've been
able to do a pretty good job with.  I plan on getting
a vacuum heat sealer which I saw in Target this
weekend for about $120.  That might improve things a
bit if I had a bag that I wasn't planning to use
immediately, but at this point I've had pretty good
results with valvebagging and squeezing out as much of
the air through the bag's valve right after roasting
or after opening and resealing.
Bottom line is there is no  easy way to have a
discussion of vacuum - sorry if I got wordy again. I
thought to clear confusion here, but maybe I created
more, and maybe I didn't.
Kevin :)
<Snip>
<Snip>
=====
--
Kevin DuPre
obxwindsurfhttp://www.virtualfusion.com"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes -- Marcel Proust"
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobshttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast">http://www.hotjobs.comhomeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast

2) From: Rick Farris
Just two comments, Kevin.
Kevin wrote:
<Snip>
Yeah, but we're talking about 25" of vacuum, and a lot of oxygen molecules
are left in there.  The bigger the container, the more.
<Snip>
I strongly urge you to check out the Costco deal.  It's a special bundle
which costs $150, but you get the next-to-the-top-of-the-line Tilia 1050, as
well as another $150 or so worth of accessories.  You get two bottle
stoppers, three canisters, a universal lid, five 11" bags, 10 8" bags, a
roll of 11" material and a roll of 8" material.  That beats the pants off of
the deals I've seen at Walmart.  Also notice that you must have at least a
500-series machine in order to be able to hook up the mason-jar sealing
accessory.  The 300- and 400- series machines don't have a vacuum port on
them.
-- Rick
homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast

3) From: Mike McGinness
From: "Rick Farris" 
 I strongly urge you to check out the Costco deal.  It's a special
bundle
<Snip>
as
<Snip>
of
<Snip>
Costco or eBay. I got my Professional II kit, brand new in the box, for $195
including s/h less than a month ago through an eBay seller... about the same
accessories (only one canister but I already had a bunch...) lists for
something like $320. I'm really liking a couple features the Pro has over my
previous Deluxe/1050.
MM;-)
Home Ju-Ju Variable Variac Rockin' Rosto Roasting in Vancouver, WA USA
Grindin' & Brewin' with Solis Maestro & Miss Silvia
homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast

4) From: Ben Silva
Just a note...QVC is having a deal for $108 including tons of accessories.
I'm not sure if this is the "500" series or whatever.  It seems like it's
the real thing and it's currently at a great price.
Ben
P.S. NOt a big fan of QVC but I was flipping through and saw this great
deal.  Here's the link, too:http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast">http://www.qvc.com/scripts/reference.pl?ref4&item348homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast

5) From: Rick Farris
Mike said:
<Snip>
So are you going to tell us, or are you just going to tease us?  :-)
-- Rick
P.S.  Check out the Tilia website.  Now, for $30, they've got a "FoodSaver
Station" that holds a roll of wide material, a roll of narrow material, a
cutter, and your FoodSaver.  (Well, not yours.  Any but a Pro.) [RF]
homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast

6) From: Rick Farris
Ben wrote:
<Snip>
That is a good deal.  It's a 500-series machine, so it doesn't have a couple
of the features that the 1050 has, (check www.tilia.com for details), but it
*does* have the wide-mouth mason-jar sealer, which doesn't come with the
Costco package. (A $10 option)
It would be a good low-end solution.
I did a search on FoodSaver at QVC, and they also have a Pro II like Mikes
new machine.  Not quite as good a deal -- $245 -- but still pretty good.
They also have some good prices on bag material.  Three rolls for $26.
They're $40 from Tilia.
-- Rick
homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast

7) From: Dan Bollinger
<Snip>
LOL! Did you know that using the word 'but' negates everything you said
prior?  This always cracks me up when people use it! I was probably the
world's worst offender until someone pointed it out to me.  Now I'm
sensitive to its use! No joy.  Here's your statement written without the
'but' and it's corresponding 'no' with it.    "Technically there is [an]
"amount" of vacuum - the larger the space in which the vacuum exists, the
greater the volume for any object inside the vacuum which is outgassing to
fill."  Isn't this what you really wanted to say?
Anyway, I happen to agree with you, or more accurately, science does and I'm
just going along with science.  They say a picture is worth a thousand
words.  How many words does is a formula worth?
P1*V1 = P2*V2
P = Pressure
V = Volume
If you have a gas in a container formed by a piston in a cylinder, and you
press the piston down 1/2, then the pressure increases 2 times.
Likewise, if you pull the piston out 2 times the pressure reduces by 1/2.
If the original pressure was atomospheric, then the reduced pressure we call
a vacuum.  Same difference.
Like you said, the same principles are a work with different sized volumes
of coffee containers and outgassing.  The problem with vacuum discussions is
that it is difficult to talk about 'nothing' as 'something.'  I think its'
because the human brain does not hear/understand the word 'no'.  Or so I've
been told.  Dan
homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast

8) From: R.N.Kyle
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
I do believe it is the 500 series it is manual, I just bought one last =
week, and it came with 3 canisters, 2 rolls of bags 8 and 11 inch 5 pre =
made bags 8 and 11 inch each a bottle stopper, a wide mouth jar sealer =
and a universal lid sealer. it was on sale last week for 98 dollars came =
to 123 with S&H
Ron Kyle
a coffee roaster from South Carolina
rnkyle

9) From: EskWIRED
<Snip>
 I plan on getting
<Snip>
I'm not sure what Target sells, but my advice is to get a Tilia Foodsaver,
and not another brand.  Further, the Foodsaver with the manual seal feature
is necessary if you plan to seal anything other than rock-hard items.
homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast

10) From: Lee XOC
< On Behalf Of Dan Bollinger
< Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 4:23 AM
<
< > Technically there is no "amount" of vacuum - agreed
< > (my bad), but the larger the space in which the vacuum
< > exists, the greater the volume for any object inside
< > the vacuum which is outgassing to fill.
<
< LOL! Did you know that using the word 'but' negates
< everything you said
< prior?  This always cracks me up when people use it! I was
< probably the
< world's worst offender until someone pointed it out to me.  Now I'm
< sensitive to its use! No joy.  Here's your statement
< written without the
< 'but' and it's corresponding 'no' with it.    "Technically
< there is [an]
< "amount" of vacuum - the larger the space in which the
< vacuum exists, the
< greater the volume for any object inside the vacuum which
< is outgassing to
< fill."  Isn't this what you really wanted to say?
I think you misread the thread.  What was said in the quote above
makes perfect sense and is written correctly.  It is of the form "I
agree with you that I was incorrect, BUT xyz is still true."  In other
words, "Even though abc is incorrect, xyz is correct."
You might be a little OVERsensitive about "but." ;)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Lee xoC
San Diego,
California
------------------------------
homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast

11) From: Dan Bollinger
<Snip>
Lee, I might be, but I doubt it.  :)   Dan
homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast

12) From: Mike McGinness
From: "Rick Farris" 
<Snip>
For one the built in cutter I've lived without for 8 years. Course, now they
offer the add-on you mentioned. The biggest is the continuously variable
sealing heat time from 1-5sec, comes in handy when doing a bunch of sealing.
Dial it back a bit as the session gets going so the bags don't melt. Also
like being able to extend the vac pull, couldn't on the Deluxe, when it
sensed it was max it switched to seal, no over-ride. I think, but am not
sure, the 1050 has this added feature too. I don't necessarily like the
auto-close feature. No over-ride for fast manual closing. I could close and
latch the Deluxe faster than this closes by itself... which means it takes
longer to seal jars with the dome attachment... whole second or two longer!
MM;-)
Home Ju-Ju Variable Variac Rockin' Rosto Roasting in Vancouver, WA USA
Grindin' & Brewin' with Solis Maestro & Miss Silvia
homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast

13) From: Rick Farris
Mike wrote:
<Snip>
Do you mean that the door closes itself?  I can see where that would come in
handy.  Sometimes I have to call someone to help me hold the bag straight
while I close the door.  An auto-close feature would let me use both hands
to hold the bag.  I can see where it would be annoying not to be able to
over-ride it, though.
-- Rick
homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast

14) From: Mike McGinness
From: "Rick Farris" 
<Snip>
<Snip>
in
<Snip>
Yup, closes itself and then starts the vac. Come to think of it, in the past
using the Deluxe there were times I'd hold both sides of the bag to keep it
flat, as you mentioned, and close it with my chin - then while pushing down
with my chin release a hand and start the vac... Guess it's a give and take
thing! (BTW, pressing manual seal instead of on/off closes the lid then
seals, never vac's...)
MM;-)
Home Ju-Ju Variable Variac Rockin' Rosto Roasting in Vancouver, WA USA
Grindin' & Brewin' with Solis Maestro & Miss Silvia
homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast

15) From: coffenut
Rick,
I have the 1050 and have figured out what to do about holding the bag
and closing the door.  I just get the bag straight over the vac-channel,
hold it in place and pull down the door with my index finger.  Then
after allowing the door to close all the way on the bag, I grab both
sides and pull taught and then close the door latches.  Haven't had any
problems with crinkles that way.
Coffenut  :^)
<Snip>
come
<Snip>
straight
<Snip>
hands
<Snip>
to
<Snip>
homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast


HomeRoast Digest