HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Profiling >was Re: +Espresso Roasting - a call for replications (14 msgs / 458 lines)
1) From: John Abbott
Chris,
    Do you find much delay between altering the voltage and the change in
heat?  I have a hacked wiring FR and I  have been interrupting the power to
the heating element to slow the cycle, but I've noticed that the bean
temperature continues to rise slightly before dropping off.  I'm using a
thermocouple and A/D converter to convert the chamber heat to a temperature
and although the roast is good (better?) it doesn't match up to the Hottop..
John
--

2) From: Mike McGinness
From: "Jim Schulman" 
<Snip>
I've been using a similar profile since shortly after the Black Bear
discussions with very consistent results. (discussed in major detail
previously) I'm measuring slowly moving bean mass temperature. Initial slow
equalization, hard fast to just before 1st, then slow and gradual 10 per
min rise. For a light full city 435 roast: 170 @1min, 230 @2 (voltage
87-93 depending on ambient), then up to 125-130v for 350 @3:30min, now
drop voltage to 105-110 (again depending on ambient) 380 @5:30 (initial
high heat drives first 10-20 bean temp faster after voltage drop), continue
rise from 380 of 10 per min to 435f @11min target. This entails raising
the voltage .5 to 1v each 10 to keep the gradual momentum usually topping
out from 110-118v (as always, depending on ambient. Currently I've used this
profile from 65f to 105f ambient, the variac allowing me to compensate for
ambient as well as profiling the roast. Winter's thankfully not here yet!
This 7:30min development roasting from onset of 1st crack - 350f - to 435f
keeps great acidity highlights and adds phenomenal body and complexity. When
I've extended the profile beyond 13-14min for 435 the highs start to
diminish.
MM;-)
Home Ju-Ju Variable Variac Rockin' Rosto Roasting in Vancouver, WA USA
Grindin' & Brewin' with Solis Maestro & Miss Silvia
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3) From: Jim Schulman
I apologize: I didn't mention that you had this profile down pat. 
It seems your temperature measurement is accurate enough to give you an aw=
esome degree 
of control. I play with 5 to 10 volt adjustments, you with .5 to 1 volt on=
es. I may 
have to revise my thinking about nose and eye being more accurate than a g=
ood temp 
measurement.
BTW, do you get bean movement at 80-90 volts early in the roast, or are yo=
u letting 
the beans sit? 
<Snip>
I'll have to remember that quote - it describes exactly what I'm trying to=
 get.
Jim
On 30 Aug 2002 at 11:43, Mike McGinness wrote:
<Snip>
0
<Snip>
f
<Snip>
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4) From: Mike McGinness
From: "Jim Schulman" 
<Snip>
No apology necessary. With all the diverse roasting methods going on with
this list who can keep it all straight! :-)
<Snip>
you letting
<Snip>
Yes & no. Or make that no & no! Almost no bean movement but I don't just let
them sit. First it must be remembered/understood the Caffe' Rosto roasts
kind of like a cross between fluid bed and drum though not quite either. The
air is not blown from below the greens. The roasting chamber is stainless
steel with the hot air blowing in from the bottom a cylinder rising from the
center of the chamber, blowing towards the outside of the chamber wall
horizontally at an angle to give circular bean movement. Looking down into
the roast chamber it looks like a dounut. My 1/3# 151gr batches never had or
have good early bean movement even at 125v! I'm pushing the batch size and
have been for a year and a half. Hence my "rocking Rosto" technique to aid
bean movement. 1/4# greens gives better movement but that's not the batch
size I want! I like 1/4#+ finished batches. (perfect pint size jar batches
and even use of greens) I have even roasted 1/2# weighed green batches to
see if I could do it. Yes the Rosto can, but if not EXTREMELY carely quite a
few beans end up the the chaff chamber...as in full.
The down side to my method is it not 'set it and forget it' at all. However,
since I'm profiling and monitoring temp etc. it's a moot point  - yielding
great roasts. Constant monitoring, adjusting voltage for profile ramp and
rocking the Rosto every 30sec or so. Worth it in the cup, IMNSHO:-) Very
even roasts, outer bean color very close to ground color. (Also virtually
never get a grassy roast since using this profile/method.) Resting is still
beneficial but not nearly as critical, tastes much more developed than speed
roasting...
MM;-)
Home Ju-Ju Variable Variac Rockin' Rosto Roasting in Vancouver, WA USA
Grindin' & Brewin' with Solis Maestro & Miss Silvia
homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast

5) From: EuropaChris
Jim, have you tried hacking into your roaster to see if you can Variac just the heating element and let the fan continue with full line voltage?  That's how my Poppery II is set up and it works a treat.  I can go from almost zero heat to 100% and the fan never varies.
Chris
"Jim Schulman"  wrote:
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6) From: EuropaChris
Hard to say.  My thermometer is just a 8" stem dial unit.  It's pretty slow to respond.  But, the thermal mass of the Poppery II is pretty low, so the change in air temp. due to the change in voltage should be quite fast.
However, no matter what I've tried with an air popper, I find a drum roast is better, especially for espresso.  Shots from HV's Reneka Techno with Hottop roasted beans really rock.  My PID'd Silvia can do almost as well, given the same beans, but the roasting is where it falls down.  Drum roasted beans just taste better - richer, more depth, less acidity.
Chris
"John Abbott"  wrote:
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7) From: floyd burton
Chris-agree on your comments about air vs drum roasting and being a spresso
novice will say drum roasting will probably produce a much better spresso
than air-would love to be able to almost replicate what we tasted in Chi.
Anyone having additional input on the Hottop's that are out there would be
much appreciated.  Hope there are no reliability/durability problems.

8) From: EuropaChris
Well, the Hottop definitely can give a superior espresso.  I think it's going to be an excellent product if they can get UL approval.  I don't see a really big difference in roasting performance compared to the Alp, except for the fact the Hottop preheats for 5 minutes before you dump the beans in.  That said, I've not played with and Alp much, only going by what I've read.  The new cooling mod that Hottop came up with definitely blows the Alp away.  HV says the beans are cool to the touch in a matter of minutes.  I'm going to sit tight with my popper fleet and see what transpires.
Chris
"floyd burton"  wrote:
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9) From: Jim Schulman
On 31 Aug 2002 at 5:02, Chris Beck wrote:
<Snip>
I've considered it. But low bean movement is only a problem at the very start of the 
roast. Now I just use 30 to 60 seconds of high heat at the roast start, and the beans 
are dry enough to move at any useful operating temperature thereafter. 
Also, I'm taking the cautious southern attitude towards my FR base. It's reliable, so 
I'm not going to mess with it.
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10) From: Jim Schulman
On 31 Aug 2002 at 10:20, floyd burton wrote:
<Snip>
Floyd, that'll be hard. 
I've been tasting some of Doug's later Black Cat variations, roasting some of his beans, and 
tried identical blends on his LM and my Tea. Here's a few observations.
- The $5000 LM is better than my $1000 Tea (duh), especially in producing very crisp and distinct 
origin flavors. 
- Strangely, because I've been focusing on mouthfeel recently, my current FR homeroast blend is a 
little heavier bodied than the current drum roasted Black Cat blend, but can't compete in origin 
flavors. This is the exact opposite of the air versus drum conventional wisdom -- it points to 
how much more important bean selection is. (it's a pity blends can't contain more than 100% 
total, always having to make choices)
- I've cupped a few of the Intelligentsia greens roasted at home side by side with Tom's from the 
same origins. They have a slightly different buying philosophy, going for lots with slightly 
lower acid along with more powerful "midrange" origin flavors. This may give them a little more 
flexibility for espresso blending. Basically, Doug thinks bean quality is far more important to 
the quality of the final cup than fancy blending or roasting techniques, and I think Tom has the 
same attitude. Both select superb beans, but they have different tastes.
My conclusion is that the exact taste of espresso is a very fugitive thing. You can get superb 
shots from any decent set up; but it's almost impossible to reproduce the taste of shots from one 
set up on another. So I think all we can share is techniques for "working" the taste, selecting 
the right beans for a certain taste profile, roasting it brighter or mellower, etc. etc; but that 
the same blend will always balance out differently for different roasters and machines.
Jim
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11) From: R.N.Kyle
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Chris, Does your fan still run thru the small 2ndary heater?
I tried to by pass this when I installed my 3 way switch, and the motor =
went into hyperspace, I needed the resistance to reduce the voltage to =
around 20 volts to run the fan motor. the heat that is put off by the =
small resister heating coil is minable and cools the roast to 200 =
degrees in about 1 min.
Ron Kyle
a coffee roaster from South Carolina
rnkyle

12) From: Dan Bollinger
UL approval is a snap.  Expensive and time-consuming, but quite easy to
accomplish.  Mostly because it is the mfgr. that decides what UL tests for.
I don't know if you know this, but UL is a private lab and not a goverment
agency.  Another tidbit -- many people believe that a product is UL approved
because of the little tag on the cord.  Actually, this just means that the
cord is UL approved!  It says nothing about the appliance it is wired to.
Dan
<Snip>
going to be an excellent product if they can get UL approval.  I don't see a
really big difference in roasting performance compared to the Alp, except
for the fact the Hottop preheats for 5 minutes before you dump the beans in.
That said, I've not played with and Alp much, only going by what I've read.
The new cooling mod that Hottop came up with definitely blows the Alp away.
HV says the beans are cool to the touch in a matter of minutes.  I'm going
to sit tight with my popper fleet and see what transpires.
<Snip>
spresso
<Snip>
be
<Snip>
roast
<Snip>
roasted
<Snip>
to
<Snip>
temperature
<Snip>
just
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That's
<Snip>
zero
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13) From: EuropaChris
Yup.  I only break the wire that leads to the main element.  The fan element is only responsible for about 100W of heat.  It can be ignored for the sake of roasting.  The motor is a 20V motor (or therabouts).  Running 120V through it must have put the beans on the ceiling? :-)
Chris
"R.N.Kyle"  wrote:
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14) From: R.N.Kyle
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Thanks for the reply Chris, Since I added the 3 way switch it has =
allowed me to extend and control the roast, by switching the to back and =
forth from heat to fan, and with some practice I've been able to slow =
the roast down after    1st crack by switching to fan 3-4 times during =
1st. crack to hold the temp, (by the Thermometer I use) at about 400 to =
415 on the last flip of the switch I hold it a little longer, and the =
roast temp drops to about 390 then I flip it back to heat to continue on =
to 2nd crack. the total time at 8 to 10 min. depending on degree of =
roast I'm aiming for;
Ron Kyle
a coffee roaster from South Carolina
rnkyle


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