HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Hottop roaster availability (51 msgs / 2138 lines)
1) From: John Abbott
DJ - according to the communication that we got from Taiwan today, they h=
ave
solved all the problems, made the fixes and are set to go.  So I would gu=
ess
that it would be just a matter of weeks now.  BUT that's just my totally
unofficial guess.
John
--

2) From: John Abbott
I just checked, my waffle iron that gets to about the same temperature as
the HotTop is UL approved.
--

3) From: John Abbott
UL Approved is stamped into the bottom along with the model number and
manufacturers boilerplate. It may be common, but I put four computer mode=
ls
through UL and then EMI/RFI testing labs and can tell you that it is
STRICTLY a commercial money cow!!
--

4) From: John Abbott
Yeah, but some air head will put it between their knees and burn the fles=
h
off and sue - - and win. This country needs some reform when it comes to
that sort of stupidity.
--

5) From: John Abbott
DJ,
Let me clear my record here - I'm not a linguist at all. I was forced to
take French in College because one could not take Latin in California unl=
ess
one was a med student.  I learned Russian working for Uncle Sam, but it i=
s
really hard to work things like "you are off frenquency" or "can anyone
relay for Boris" into everyday conversations.  I took Koinonia Greek and
Ancient Hebrew in Seminary.  I'm really proud of myself if I recognize si=
x
or seven words in any of those languages now. 
John - who has also forgotten Fortran, Cobal, RPG, Polyforth, Pascal, and=
 my
own middle name!
--

6) From: John Abbott
DJ,
I always wonder if you were porting an application - would you LISP it to
PORT?  I Knew we were in trouble when they came out with PL/1  Anytime th=
ey
number - its the beginning of something bad.   Never got into PL/Z But st=
ill
function with Basic, C, C++, and can debug Java but never wrote a line in=
 it
  My new romance is an old flame called Perl :O)    I've sold out to Linu=
x.
Just to keep this somewhat NEAR the topic..  I have set up a controller o=
n
my old Fresh Roast using, of all things Basic - because I can make quick
changes without having to compile.   But my FR is currently back in the
work-shop. The HotTop has been commanding all my time - Wish they would h=
ave
used standard part numbers - I'd love to know what the control chip is th=
at
they used.
--

7) From: John Abbott
Chris,
I don't know who posted it  but the ratio of lawyers to population in thi=
s
country is incredible. So if we clamor for reform, we need the attention =
of
our lawmakers - most of whom are lawyers.  So if we are to straighten thi=
ngs
out we need to get rid of the lawyers - all but mine :O)
When I burned my hand on my HotTop I was impressed immediately with the
hazard it represents. Then somebody in my family pointed out that I had d=
one
the same on the waffle iron when I was 7 - and I realized that it was a
mental lapse on my part as much as anything. About 1/3 of the early adopt=
ers
had some negative experience with the hot shell.  I find it interesting t=
hat
none of us have actually recommended any fixes other than a possible warn=
ing
sign (which they have now included).  
I would feel terrible if I thought that the HotTop didn't make the US mar=
ket
because of some legal threat over the heat of the shell.  It is a great
roaster and needs to be given the respect we give anything hot.
John
--

8) From: John Abbott
DJ,
Not to worry, there will be lots of us there with you.  Of course we migh=
t
be divided between two tables :O)
I just checked with Baratza (US importer) no dates set yet.
--

9) From: DJ Garcia
Sorry about all the junk text at the end of my previous post ...- my
first post, pretty useless but good as an experiment :-). I assume it
was because of the rich text formatting I had as default - I hope the
plain text setting cleans it up.
Any ideas on the time-frame for the Hottop roaster? End of year? Any day
now? I'm currently using a Caffe Rosto, which gives me good tasting
beans but is not very precise. I've only been roasting a short while,
and recently moved from my several-year-old trusty Sylvia, great at its
pricepoint (and many above) to a Wega Mininova EPD, which is awesome.
Thanks for the interesting content - maybe I'll contribute something
useful someday!
DJ
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10) From: Irene and Lubos Palounek
"So I would guess that it would be just a matter of weeks now" wrote John
about the HotTop availability on the USA market.
I am afraid that my guess is that it will take quite a large number of
weeks.  It seems that the CHANG YUE INDUSTRIAL CORP. people in Taiwan are
much less concerned about the very hot surfaces and possible law suits than
the Baratza people, and I fully understand Baratza's position. I am also
afraid that the UL approval takes longer than the Taiwan people hope.
I also think that the improvements should be re-tested by the early adopters
to assure that the variability between "hot" and "cool" units and other
problems were really solved. The noisy drum problem on some HotTop units has
been corrected and the parts for the "early adopter" units will be on its
way from Taiwan soon.
Don't misunderstand me -- I, too would like to see the HotTop on the market
soon. However, I think that Baratza people are taking a very good approach
and want to ensure that it will STAY on the market.
Regards, Lubos
P.S.
I am sending a copy of this note to Kyra, as she is probably the person who
knows the answer better than anybody else -- and should know what is being
said and written about the HotTop expectations and availability. I know that
she is doing a great job.
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11) From: Dan Bollinger
<Snip>
hope.
I don't believe that UL approval is a requirement for marketing merchandise.
As I understand it, UL is an independent, third-party testing lab and not a
government agency.  Their full name is:  Underwriters Laboratories, Inc.
That INC is a give-away.  Only private enterprises are incorporated. Not
govermental agencies.  Also, note that their URL is a dotcom, not a dotgov:
www.ul.com  If they decide to get UL approval they can still proceed with
selling their product while approval is being obtained, they just can't mark
it as UL approved until then.  Dan
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12) From: Jim Schulman
On 9 Sep 2002 at 7:45, Dan Bollinger wrote:
<Snip>
UL approval is a requirement in many liability insurances. Contractors are generally 
required by their underwriters to use UL approved components in buildings, retailers in 
the electrical goods they sell. I doubt Baratza will be able to sell it if it isn't 
approved. That's why it's called Underwriters' laboratory.
Jim
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13) From: floyd burton
When new products hit the market, there are a bunch of lawyers out there
that immediately review the products and search for any potential to sue the
manufacturer.  Worked for a very large consumer products company and every
time we released a new package-we held our collective breaths and waited to
see if any of the sharks could penetrate the design and sue the company.
The USA has 5% of the world population, 25% of the world's wealth and over
2/3 of the world's lawyers-one of those relationships is way way out of line
and it costs us all very dearly.

14) From: Dan Bollinger
<Snip>
generally
<Snip>
retailers in
<Snip>
it isn't
<Snip>
Somewhat right!  ;)  What it does is lower their liability insurance.  They
might still be able to bring a product to market while applying for UL
testing and making their insurance rates contingent on passing whatever
standard the mfgr. and UL decide is appropriate.  Dan
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15) From: Dan Bollinger
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
John,  check again if you would please.  Is it the cord that is UL =
approved or the iron?  A tag on the cord only means that the cord is UL =
approved.  A statement on the iron's nameplate means the iron is UL =
approved.  It's a common mistake.  Dan

16) From: Dan Bollinger
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Cash Cow is right!  We looked into UL approval for a new product and =
decided it wasn't worth it!  For one thing, they didnt' have any =
applicable standards that applied, so we could state the parameters and =
they would write the standard -- all for a very nice additional charge =
in the tens of thousands!  Dan
        UL Approved is stamped into the bottom along with the model =
number and manufacturers boilerplate. It may be common, but I put four =
computer models through UL and then EMI/RFI testing labs and can tell =
you that it is STRICTLY a commercial money cow!!
        --

17) From: Jim Schulman
On 9 Sep 2002 at 10:45, Dan Bollinger wrote:
<Snip>
Thanks for the clarification, Jim
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18) From: DJ Garcia
John,
Thanks for the update - doesn't sound like a very long wait ... 
is it here yet??? Any minute now ... I can do this ...
BTW, in Spanish "el bote" is masculine for boat, and "la lancha" is
feminine for boat. Go figure! And don't ask me what happens when you put
a "bote" and a "lancha" in the same slip ... and when I think of Tea, I
tend to think of Tea Leoni, why I have no idea ...
DJ, desperate for no good reason
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19) From: Jack Berry
I'm not crazy about hot surfaces but a recent incident comes to mind that
makes me wonder if it's such "show stopper".
Early in the summer I purchased a new Weber and on the first use I managed
to burn myself on the hot exterior of the grill cover. Dumb move, lack of
awareness on my part, but it never occurred to me to file a law suit.
Further, I think the HotTop is no hotter than my waffle iron, steam iron,
interior oven surfaces, a cigarette tip or a million hot items we could come
in contact with daily. They are everywhere I guess.
So the folks producing and marketing HotTop may have a different view than
many on the list.

20) From: DJ Garcia
With regards to UL certification, I just checked my Wega Mininova EVD
and there's no UL certification that I can see - there's that CE logo,
but no UL. And that danged nozzle thing with the super hot steam keeps
blistering my arm - you'd think they'd put a red flag and warning label,
but NOOOOO!! And then that other switch with no label - tried that and
danged if I don't get my leg completely burnt by scalding hot water, and
again no warning whatsoever! I think it's time to call my attorney ...
DJ
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21) From: DJ Garcia
John,
You're showing your age - what, no BAL, PL/I, PL/M, PL/Z or LISP? I take
it you haven't forgotten Basic, Java and C++ ... I can keep up on that
side, but on the human languages, beyond English & Spanish (and a bit of
its cousins like Italian) they all look like Greek to me ...
DJ - who forgets if he used soap after stepping out of the shower ... 
--

22) From: Mark Prince
At 11:56 PM 08/09/2002, you wrote:
<Snip>
And that they STAY in business :)
Mark
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23) From: Mark Prince
At 06:22 PM 09/09/2002, you wrote:
<Snip>
CE is often fine for more "prosumer" and commercial espresso machines to 
most vendors. Either UL or CE.
Something that's missed here is what UL does. It gives vendors a confidence 
to sell a product. It's not about "oh, it can't be sold"... instead it's a 
perception, mainly by vendors, but also with some reality that if something 
is UL certified, it limits their liability.
I say "in reality" as well because for all the trash talking of UL in here 
by a few folks, they actually do test the products, hold products up to 
certain minimum standards, and they are not a rubber stamp if you write a 
big enough check. UL standards have been quoted often in US court of laws, 
and used to win cases for product manufacturers, vendors, and resellers.
CE is the Euro equiv of UL... for commercial machines, it's usually 
acceptable to vendors and importers for the same reasons listed above: 
perception and reality that the product has been safety tested, and is safe 
to sell.
Mark
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24) From: EuropaChris
Yeah, it's called Darwinism.  Quit protecting all the stupid morons in the country and let them off themselves.  Protecting the weak just dilutes the gene pool, and in many areas of the US, the gene pool is pretty shallow to start with.
Think of how much money this country pi$$es away trying to protect idiots:
1) anti smoking
2) anti drugs
3) anti drinking
4) seatbelts
5) airbags
5.5) helmet laws
6) cold coffee
7) censorship
8) low-fat (high sugar) foods - can you say 'diabetes'?
9) playground 'safety' - I played on 8' high monkey bars over blacktop as a child - I'm still here.
10) huge wide roads with 25 mph speed limits
need I go on???
I've spent a lot of time in Europe, and there is none of this mentality.  Lawyers are not part of the picture there, not sure if it's due to legislation or just the consumers.  They don't worry about trying to protect everyone from themselves.  They assume people are naturally halfway smart, and mostly, they are.  
Sorry for the early a.m. rant, but this topic is a real hot button for me.  Americans need to start taking responsibilty for their OWN actions, and quit blaming everone else around you.  If I burn the skin off my arm on a Hottop, my Weber, or my toaster, well - so be it.  My dumb mistake.  I still have a scar from my bread maker insert hitting my arm.  Oh well.  Only fault is my own.
Chris
"John Abbott"  wrote:
<Snip>
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25) From: raymond peters
way to go chris my vote is with you
raymond
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26) From: floyd burton
WOW-you ought to get into politics if you have this much steam about all
those issues-happen to agree 110% with everything in the post.  Gets back to
how our politicians are controlled by interest groups and their money.
Someday maybe change will happen-was it TJ who said you need a revolution
every so often to start over again.

27) From: Al Raden
Amen, Chris.
- al r.
Chris Beck wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
- Al Raden
 http://www.brandydesigns.com

28) From: floyd burton
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
USA has 5% of world population, 25% of worlds wealth and over 65% of worlds
lawyers.

29) From: Gary Zimmerman
floyd burton wrote:
<Snip>
And how many of them are in politics?  Another telling point.
-- garyZ
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30) From: C. Marley
Gary Zimmerman wrote:
<Snip>
And we got that way because we had political stability, and hard working
citizens. No Empire to exploit. Other nations with much more in the way
of natural resources and population, have lagged behind in social
progress and prosperity.  A country of laws needs lawyers.  Only lawless
countries have no use for them!
-- 
For the conservation of the Tibetan Lhasa Apso,
Regards, Cathy http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast">http://www.lhasa-apso.orghomeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast

31) From: DJ Garcia
Chris,
Totally agree. In Europe they replace lawyers with education for the
most part. Not that there aren't many examples of it here, but it's
definitely not the norm. Too many people looking for the easy way out,
as in "let somebody else do the work".
Cheers,
DJ
----------

32) From: Benjamin L. Alpers
Let me apologize for contributing to a thread that has gone way off 
topic, but since I violently disagree with much that has been said I 
want to add my two cents...
I, for one, am happy that I live in a country in which I can count on 
my consumer products being fairly safe.
Thanks to intense consumer advocacy work, our cars, appliances, etc. 
are infinitely safer than they were thirty years ago.
I'm happy that when I go to a restaurant, the experience is no longer 
increasing my risk for lung cancer.
Such safety is not just protecting people from themselves. 
Unnecessary deaths and injuries have social costs. Children lose 
parents. Parents lose children.  We all eventually pay in our health, 
car, and life insurance for the added environmental risks caused by 
irresponsible corporations.  Second hand smoke kills those who don't 
smoke.
If we are going to treat corporations as persons (and one might say 
THAT's where all the trouble began), we should demand "personal" 
responsibility from them as well.
Bottom line: I'm happy waiting a few extra months for my Hottop if it 
ends up less likely to give me, my wife, or my two kids third degree 
burns (hey, that's practically on topic!).
OK...flame off!
-- Ben Alpers
    Norman, OK
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33) From: EuropaChris
You're points are well taken.  I agree that corporations are one of the biggest abusers in our system.  I don't like second hand smoke, either.
My point is that people have known smoking is unhealthy for decades, yet more and more people start smoking.  If people are that stupid, screw 'em.  Let them smoke 'til they drop dead.  Just hand them a can of Drano and make the process a bit quicker.
I am definitely pro-consumer.  We need safe, reliable 'things'.  But, it's gone WAY too far, with lawsuits upon lawsuits, and THAT drives up costs for society far faster, IMHO.  
I'm a pilot, and back in the late 70's and early 80's, most of the major manufacturers (Cessna, Piper, etc) basically stopped making single engine small planes due to ever increasing ridiculous liability suits (such as some idiot flying into a mountain in fog and then his lawyer sues Cessna because the plane had 'poor visibilty', and WINS!!!!)  Only after serious reforms were passed in government did Cessna start to build light planes again.  Still, the prices are outrageous due the the enormous insurance premiums that have to be paid every year.
THAT is my point.  Yes, Cessna should be forced to build safe airplanes, but they cannot be held liable for the stupidity of the pilot.  A Hottop is perfectly safe if used with caution and care.  It will not burn down your house used within design limits.  We should not all be forced to bear the cost to redesign the product to 'idiot proof' it, as they will just come up with a better idiot.
Chris
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<Snip>
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34) From: Jim Gundlach
On Wednesday, September 11, 2002, at 07:18 AM, Chris Beck wrote:
<Snip>
Over 80 percent of smokers started smoking and were hooked by age 16.  
The tobacco industry knew what they were doing and pushed the drugs to 
addict kids for the sake of the almighty buck.
If we can not get back to coffee and let these fascist turn this list 
into a right wing propaganda outlet, I will unsubscribe.
Jim Gundlach
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35) From: Randy Roy
What makes you think that your opinion is the correct one?   People make
choices - sometimes good, sometimes bad.  That's just like the guy that is
suing McDonald's, claiming that their food made him obese.  He made the
CHOICE to eat breakfast, lunch and dinner there, but it's McDonald's
fault???  Whatever happened to personal responsibility?

36) From: M.G.Rich
<Snip>
I'm with Jim. One reason I tend to lurk and read rather than jump into most
discussions on this list and others is the tendency of Internet discussions
to veer wildly from the point at hand to, usually, political rants.
I spend all day dealing with the other stuff (I teach at a university) and
all politics,all confrontation, all the time ... well, it can wear you down.
This is a coffee roasting list. I drink coffee. I roast coffee. I read about
coffee. That's why I'm here. For the other stuff, there's Fox News and
alt.whatever on the Usenet.
M.G.Rich -- and now, back to regular programming.
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37) From: Charlie Herlihy
Jim, I only clicked on the Hottop etc. subject message because
your name was listed as the sender. Since I'm not getting a
hottop I've been skipping them and I guess I've missed some OT
discussions that I don't have time to go through the archives to
study, but please don't unsubscribe! Instead of calling right
wingers fascists (unless they really are)- hows about reminding
about the OT that should posted on subject headings and deleting
the posts that are bugging you?
Charlie
--- Jim Gundlach  wrote:
<Snip>
=====
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38) From: EskWIRED
<Snip>
Anybody can sue anybody for anything.  The question is whether he can state
a coherent legal theory and support it with proper evidence.
And besides, you are jumping on the wrong bandwagon.  You are blaming the
plaintiff.  Remember, it's not the fault of citizens who bring these cases,
and it's not the fault of the citizens who sit on juries and award what are
percieved as excessive amounts ... it's the goddamned lawyers!  Yeah, that's
the ticket!  It's all the lawyers' fault!
I pine for the good old days when traveling salesmen would sell poison-laced
concotions, causing injury and death, and the response was "Let the buyer
beware".
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39) From: Al Raden
Chris Beck wrote:
<Snip>
Too bad we need all these evil corporations to make the products we use 
everyday, and to provide us with the jobs we need to buy the things we 
use every day.  If you just remember that corporations exist solely to 
make a profit for their shareholders, and not to be our social 
conscience, life is a lot easier.
And, I think it's particularly humorous reading concerns about second 
hand smoke from this group.  We probably collectively breed more 
carcinogins from the smoke of roasting than most people ever get from 
second hand smoke.  By the way, most of the early studies on second hand 
smoke have been largely disproved.
- al r.
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40) From: Al Raden
Agree...
By the way, I'm sitting here sipping on a 48 hour post roast Miel, 
brewed as an Americano... Wow, is it good!
- al r.
M.G.Rich wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
- Al Raden
 http://www.brandydesigns.com

41) From: HJoelS
Here, Here Jim,
I too thought Chris Beck's outrage was more for Trafalgar Square protests,
than our Coffee Home roasting group!
HJoelS
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
<Snip>
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42) From: EuropaChris
I warned ya'all before I got started that this topic was a hot button for me.
And, it really IS on topic to the Hottop, if only slightly.  I really like the Hottop from what I've seen and played with it a few times.  I think it produces superior coffee to any hot air roast I've had.
The reason why this issue of UL and lawsuits gets me so irritated is that I'm a careful, consciencious user of appliances.  I do NOT want to pay a lot of extra money to make the roaster 'idiot proof'.  Nor do I wish to wait another year while it's redesigned or for it to sit on UL's doorstep for months.  We may then NEVER get a real, production end-user roaster, but merely have a batch of prototypes to a few people and that's it forever.  Not a good situation.
I'm not a right winger or some wacko.  I'm just a conservative, well educated Republican, and really quite non-politcal overall.  I just feel people need to take responsibilty.  I do my best, and it really irks me when nobody else gives a rip.
Come on, Hottop....I can't wait to get one.  My popper fleet will be retired overnight.
Chris
HJoelS  wrote:
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43) From: Mark A. Chalkley
On Wednesday, September 11, 2002, 1:12:27 PM, you wrote:
CB> The reason why this issue of UL and lawsuits gets me so irritated
CB> is that I'm a careful, consciencious user of appliances.  I do NOT
CB> want to pay a lot of extra money to make the roaster 'idiot
CB> proof'.  Nor do I wish to wait another year while it's redesigned
CB> or for it to sit on UL's doorstep for months.  We may then NEVER
CB> get a real, production end-user roaster, but merely have a batch
CB> of prototypes to a few people and that's it forever.  Not a good
CB> situation.
CB> Come on, Hottop....I can't wait to get one.
Hear, hear!  My sentiments exactly.  I'll gladly take the model that
requires you to sign a form whereby you certify that you're not an
idiot, and if you're lying, you'll pay for the consequences out of
your own pocket, like any self-respecting idiot should.  I'm waiting,
credit card at the ready (and not very patiently, either, I might
add)...
Mark C.
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44) From: DJ Garcia
Wow! I just wanted to find out when I could buy my Hottop, and wind up
getting sued :-) Cool!
DJ
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45) From: floyd burton
Hey dude u got it wrong-u be the suor not the suee-sorry couldn't
resist-hope happens soon-roasting season is up on us.

46) From: R.N.Kyle
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Well you know its cigarettes today, Alcohol tomorrow and mabey coffee =
next week, where does it stop.It certainly doesn't stop with =
corporations having people work in environments that are a greater risk =
to them then 2nd. hand smoke, companies pumping tons of pollution  into =
the air, and water.  Hey you do the best you can. Live and let live.
Enjoying a great cup of Yemen Rimi, and Celebs blend while I pass on my =
opinion. Being a recovering addict of 16 years clean, I try not to judge =
people on their shot comings, in hopes that they find a better way to =
live. Just a thought. Back to roasting CRLM
Ron Kyle
a coffee roaster from South Carolina
rnkyle

47) From: Dan Bollinger
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Ron,  I don't see the parallel.  Nicotine is chemically addictive and =
the mfgrs. knew it.   Are you saying that caffeine is chemically =
addictive and Folgers knows it but they aren't saying anything?  ;)  =
Nevermind, don't tell me I don't want to know!  :)  Got any of that Rimi =
left?   Dan
  Well you know its cigarettes today, Alcohol tomorrow and mabey coffee =
next week, where does it stop.It certainly doesn't stop with =
corporations having people work in environments that are a greater risk =
to them then 2nd. hand smoke, companies pumping tons of pollution  into =
the air, and water.  Hey you do the best you can. Live and let live.
  Enjoying a great cup of Yemen Rimi, and Celebs blend while I pass on =
my opinion. Being a recovering addict of 16 years clean, I try not to =
judge people on their shot comings, in hopes that they find a better way =
to live. Just a thought. Back to roasting CRLM
  Ron Kyle
  a coffee roaster from South Carolina
  rnkyle

48) From: R.N.Kyle
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Dan I get a god laugh at some of your post, thanks, about Remi I just =
have about 85 grs. but you are welcome to them.
Ron Kyle
a coffee roaster from South Carolina
rnkyle

49) From: Dan Bollinger
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Actually, I was hoping to bum your last cup of brewed coffee.  Oh well, =
it's probably cold by now.  Durn.  We should all live closer, eh?

50) From: DJ Garcia
John, Thanks for the update - we'll just have to be patient! The Rosto
isn't doing too badly. I'm still waiting for my new MC anyway - had to
close my account because some creep pilfered the number and started
ordering stuff ... AARRGHHH! Fortunately only one charge got through and
we're reversing it.
BTW, I'm with option 6. I don't care. I do enough scientific thinking
most of the other times (I'm a system architect and bonafide geek) - for
me coffee is for coffee breaks, emphasis on BREAK :-) I also hate lunch
meetings - lunch is for me to enjoy some food and NOT think.
Cheers,
DJ
--

51) From: R.N.Kyle
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
OK Dan Actually it is pretty good cold, bitter sweet chocolate taste, =
I've never liked coffee real hot, I think it shows its stuff when it =
cools down, and the added benefit is it don't burn your tongue. burnt =
tongue syndrome ruins coffee drinking for a couple of days 
Ron Kyle
a coffee roaster from South Carolina
rnkyle


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