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Topic: All this need for hard scientific evidence is getting annoying.OT (4 msgs / 130 lines)
1) From: Charlie Herlihy
--- Kevin DuPre  wrote:
<Snip>
evidence.  Not literature.  Can you show me where the 
bean temperature is measured as higher than the heated
environment temperature? In Illy?  Davids? Sivetz? 
Not words.  Not opinion.  Measured data.  I've not
seen it." AND "I have only one problem with that.  Mr.
Staub didn't cite references to research backing his
claim.  Without a citation, it's just his opinion. Why
can we not locate hard research to show an exothermic
reaction?" serve what purpose? 
<Snip>
that hard research and evidence you are DEMANDING over
and over and over, since the industry pioneers can't
seem to produce it, and since we can't seem to find it
for ourselves to your satisfaction? <
 Hold on Kevin, I'm not jumping on you. I loved your recent post
about the wonder and mystery of the roasting process...BUT,
Jim's been fairly polite while asking for documented proof of
strong assersions made, and it hasn't been posted. The experts
being quoted over and over have said things that I disagree
with(some cupping reports and roasting technique opinions of
Davids)  and/or know to be down right wrong, if I'm thinking of
the right Illy. They may be 100% correct on the exothermic
properties of roasting beans.  Maybe not. Pioneers don't know
everything.
 Please let's agree to disagree and drop this thread for a
while. I've had fun following it, untill no new ideas came out
and egos started to bang together. Peace and humor, dudes
Charlie
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2) From: dewardh
Charlie:
<Snip>
Um . . . some sure has . . .
Illy and Viani, "Espresso Coffee", contains not only temperature and 
calorimetric curves to support their "claims" (pages 88 and 89), but 17 pages 
of references to the technical literature on coffee (and it is now 7 years old 
.. . . more work has been published since it was).  Sievets charges for (most 
of) his (proprietary) documentation . . . it is, hawever, "available", and some 
of it has been quoted here.  It is simply false to state that there is no 
"evidence" to support the assertion of exothermic reactions in the coffee 
roasting process.  Most of it is probably available up there at either UBC or 
Simon Frasier (or U of A in Edmonton, if that's closer to you) . . . it's 
almost all available here in Berkeley (which has a notable Food Science 
department in the School of Public Health).  The fact that there *is* evidence, 
that the experiments *have* been done, is what makes this discussion so pecu  
liar.  Some here want to frame it as "opinion v. opinion", where in fact it is 
"(unsubstantiated) opinion v. (already published) evidence".  In this case the 
"I haven't seen any evidence" statement means merely that the person making the 
statement hasn't looked . . .
Deward
Ps.  at least this thread is "on topic" . . . (more or less )
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3) From: Charlie Herlihy
--- dewardh  wrote:
<Snip>
 OK, then Deward, I'll take your word on that. Will that help
any of us roast better? (no disrespect intended). I remember
asking Steve Diedrich (expert!) whether the exothermic reactions
in the roasting beans would be enough to finish a roast that was
well on it's way, and he was quite adement that it most
definately was NOT! "Keep adding heat!" I believed him without
asking for his lab charts. I keep adding heat, but less than
before first crack. Please don't you go unsubscribing either ;o)
Charlie
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4) From: dewardh
Charlie:
<Snip>
It might.  It might help to know (and to understand why) one needs to turn the 
heat *way* down to prevent a "rush" from first to second crack (if that's what 
you want to do) . . . a lot more than one would turn it down to slow the ramp 
to first crack.
<Snip>
Of course not . . . 
<Snip>
asking Steve Diedrich (expert!) whether the exothermic reactions
in the roasting beans would be enough to finish a roast that was
well on it's way, and he was quite adement that it most
definately was NOT! "Keep adding heat!" I believed him without
asking for his lab charts. I keep adding heat, but less than
before first crack.
Oh, drat . . . another "expert" who thinks he knows what he's talking about  
.. . . and you believed him without "evidence".  Remove the heat source and the 
roast stops . . . there's a surprise .  But unless the cooling is working it 
does keep going for a while, doesn't it (remember those "HotTop" posts about 
the beans continuing to "pop" in the tray after they were dumped (before the 
cooling fan was added) ? ? ?  It's nice to know *why* that was happening, isn't 
it ? ? ?).
<Snip>
Of course not . . . I've learned a lot from some of the people here . . .
Deward
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