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Topic: Volume vs. Weight (11 msgs / 325 lines)
1) From: John Abbott
Charlie,
    I have no idea what the other SM5K's get, but I have detailed the pou=
r
on mine about a dozen times. I'm sorry if the results seem out of the rea=
lm
of reality, but honest Charlie - that's what I'm getting. Short of filmin=
g
it I don't know what else to do.  From first the first drip out of the gr=
oup
to the last is 14 seconds - the total duration from the beginning of the
pour to the end is 18 seconds.   If you want to drop by for a couple of
drinks - I'll let you push the button.
--

2) From: John Abbott
You know, some of my best blends have been more or less accidental. I had=
 a
little of a couple of different beans left and tossed in the roaster
together (without measuring the proportions) and Wow!   Of course I've tr=
ied
that and developed some great drain cleaner.
--

3) From: Irene and Lubos Palounek
"You need a way to measure pretty consistently ~ 12 grams of beans; I've got
a scoop that works pretty well...." wrote Fulton Martin in the "+Need some
ideas (sorta on topic)......" thread.
I have found that the weight to volume ratio of different beans varies a
lot. It also changes with the degree of roast, and with the age of the
beans, and who knows what else.  That is why I have changed to weight in all
my measurements, for consistency.
How do you make your scoop to work "pretty well" in measuring 12 g of
coffee? How do you adjust fore the weight to volume ratio variation.
Which leads to a question. When making espresso or cappuccino or Americano
or similar drinks, some people recommend constant weight of beans, others
recommend constant volume of beans.  I have tried both and have difficulties
deciding which approach is better -- and why.  Any comments or insights?
Cheers, Lubos
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4) From: Dan Bollinger
Process-wise you are always better off using weight in dry, granulated
materials.  A slight change in grind adjustment or accidental compaction
while measuring and the volume will change, but not the weight.  If you use
weight, you will always have the same amount of flavor essences available
per shot.  Not true with volume.   Dan
<Snip>
difficulties
<Snip>
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5) From: Gary Zimmerman
Irene and Lubos Palounek wrote:
<Snip>
Then it really doesn't matter.  Does it?
  :-)
-- garyZ
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6) From: Irene and Lubos Palounek
Gary, I think it does matter.  The results from "constant volume" and
"constant weight" in our espresso machine are different.  They require
different grind for the "2 oz in 28 sec" cup. The amount of the crema is
different. The taste and aroma differ.
I know -- I should keep experimenting and keep good records and vary just
one thing at the time. Frankly, right now, the amount of experimenting is
overwhelming me. At this moment, I would prefer to pick up the collective
brains and go the route that leads to the best cup, and simply enjoy the
coffee -- now. I promise, I will experiment more, later.
By the way, what do the "super-automatic espresso machines" do -- do they
measure the volume or the weight? Before or after grinding? How consistent
are they in the producing the "2 oz in 28 seconds" (or whatever) cup after
cup after cup...
I often tend to ask questions, trying to understand the answers -- and end
up doing it my way, anyhow.  :-)
Cheers, Lubos
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7) From: Charlie Herlihy
--- Irene and Lubos Palounek  wrote:
By the way, what do the "super-automatic espresso machines" do 
-- do they
measure the volume or the weight? Before or after grinding? How 
consistent
are they in the producing the "2 oz in 28 seconds" (or whatever)
cup after
cup after cup...
 My Solis M5k supposedly is grinding 7 grams every time. No way
to know for sure.Somehow I think it's really filling a certain
space that holds an average of 7 grams. John Abbot has the only
one ever made that pours 2 oz. shots in 20 seconds, the rest of
us get the 8 second pours. I would think that if I could do my
own dosing I'd cram as much as the filter would hold, whatever
the weight or volume.
 Measuring for drip I find just using 2 heaping tablespoons per
coffee cup of water to be faster and easier than sprinkling
coffee grinds on a little scale untill the correct weight is
achieved. Usually, the most coffee you can fit seems to make the
richest cup, so long as it's good coffee, of course ;o)
Charlie
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8) From: Mike McGinness
I agree Lubos, it does matter to a point. It of course depends also on
brewing method. I believe you're referring to espresso brewing which is more
finicky than other methods. Especially if going for a specific shot length
and volume, say 2oz in 25 seconds, that is. Of course then there's tamp
pressure and technique. I have found weight more accurate for shot
consistency but am admittedly usually lazy and use my 53cc scoop level full
of whole beans, which averages 18gr, and grind per load. For my most common
beverage, Cafe' Crema Americano it's not as critical as say a double shot
targeted 2oz 25sec. My Americano double 'shot' is approximately 5oz in
25sec, the time doesn't vary (usually), the amount does! If it hits 25sec
and only 4.5oz I stop the shot, top off the 5oz SS pitcher with hot water,
dump in mug, refill SS pitcher with another 5oz hot water, dump in mug and
presto - 18gr 25sec creamy Americano. Sometimes I miscalculate tamp or grind
or weight of beans and hit 5oz shot short of 25sec, oh well, just didn't
achieve optimum extraction on that one. But let me tell you, a 20sec 5oz
18gr pull plus 5oz hot water still makes a great creamy Americano! BTW, I
have a digital cooking timer sitting by Miss Silvia just for this purpose,
the 25sec countdown...
For that perfect 1.5oz double ristretto in 25sec weight, grind and tamp are
ALL highly critical!!! (and difficult to achieve...especially when a person
changes bean almost every other pull...)
MM;-)
Home Ju-Ju Variable Variac Rockin' Rosto Roasting in Vancouver, WA USA
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9) From: Charlie Herlihy
--- John Abbott  wrote:
<Snip>
 Really, John-I never doubted what you posted about your sloooow
creamy shots. Thanks for informing me off list that the tamper
is adjustable, I never would have guessed. I've been too busy
roasing 10 hrs. a day in preparation for a big fall fair comming
up this weekend, but I'll call Baratza when things calm down and
see if I can get my machine tuned up. Then I'll let a couple of
other SM5K owners know how to tweek theirs, if it works for me.
 On another subject-an accidental blending of Kona and Maui Moka
had me thinking I'd brewed some St. Helena. What a heavenly
combo, and I'd been thinking that each was very nice alone, but
missing something... what a tease to mention it, though, since
Tom's out of Kona and the Maui Moka may never be available
again. I had to tell someone who would care! ;o)
Charlie
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10) From: AlChemist John
Sometime around 19:15 9/12/02, Mike McGinness typed:
<Snip>
This discussion is mentioning a lot of volume (liquid) vs time 
parameters.  Would someone mine listing the basics.  I would rather like to 
follow the conversation but they are just numbers right now.
I remember someone's story about a x oz shot in 10-12 sec from a 
barissta.  The barissta though this was long.  The jist of the story "felt" 
like the barissta was nuts.
PLEASE don't refer me to another source to look this up (I won't).  Thanks 
if someone(s) can/will answer.
--
John Nanci 
AlChemist at large
Roasting and Blending by Gestalt
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11) From: Fulton Martin
--On 9/12/02 6:49 PM -0500 PAL wrote:
<Snip>
variation.
I didn't care that much. I took three varieties of roasted coffee with
me; I used my scoop on each and weighed the result (before I left on my
trip). They were within a gram, which is close enough for me, under the
circumstances (which were a Zassenhaus Turkish mill and a Swiss Gold
one cupper, in case you've forgotten).
Fulton Martin
__=o&o>__
fulton
San Diego, CA
N32 43.956, W117 05.874
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