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Topic: Do fast roasts ruin some beans? (11 msgs / 300 lines)
1) From: Ken Mary
I have completed comparison roasts of Ethiopian Ghimbi, one fast to second
crack in 2.4 minutes, and one slow to second in 13 minutes. All previous
Ghimbi roasts and this slow roast were uneven, with about 10 beans "lighter
than average". The fast roast resulted in 9 beans that were expanded
normally but had a peanut color, very much lighter than those present in the
slow roasted beans. These were broken easily in my fingers and smelled very
bad. Of course, they were discarded. The lights were not removed from the
slow roast.
Has anyone noticed this in their Ghimbi or other beans? Are these "light"
beans with their bad flavor still present in the slow roasts, but darker
color and so not noticed? Are these light beans ruined by the fast roast, or
are they defects, not able to darken quickly and so stand out in contrast to
the normal dark beans?
The slow roast had little fragrance from the grounds, and almost no brew
aroma, but tasted very good although the fruity flavors were missing. There
was no obvious foul flavor from the light beans. There was no surface oil.
The fast roast had more fragrance and the brew aroma was almost
intoxicating, fruity, candy-like. There was a glossy oil coat on these
beans. The flavor was much more complex, fruity, and much preferred over the
slow roast.
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2) From: hlhurd
 Ken,
 Ethiopian coffees will have a variety of colors in the finished roast.
Indonesian coffees like Sumatra will appear similar.
 Leave the light beans in next time.  Read more about this at Sweet Marias
site in the cupping reviews
 Holly
"Has anyone noticed this in their Ghimbi or other beans? Are these "light"
beans with their bad flavor still present in the slow roasts, but darker
color and so not noticed? Are these light beans ruined by the fast roast, or
are they defects, not able to darken quickly and so stand out in contrast to
the normal dark beans?"
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3) From: Dan Bollinger
<Snip>
2.4 Minutes!    Geez, it's called 'roasting', not 'flash welding!'  I can't
imagine that working out.  Roasting isn't just heating something to a
certain temperature, it's cooking food.  Some things you can't rush.  Dan
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4) From: Charlie Herlihy
--- Dan Bollinger  wrote:(in a
reply)
<Snip>
 I have to agree with Dan. I recently was given a Fresh Roast
and the same beans that come out rich, smooth and deeelicious
after an 18 minute roast(doing 4 lb batches) in my brick oven
system taste flat, acrid and dull, as well as giving a slight
burning sensation in the throat when roasted in 3 minutes in the
FR, even though the fast roast makes them look like candy. I
played with the FR to stretch out the roast to 12 minutes and
again got great shots. I've tried beautifull looking coffee from
various roasteries that have the lovely shine and the harsh
stomach reaction. I think they roast too fast, too hot, and
never bother to try anything different. Too long a roast at
below the right temp will certainly bake the goodness out of any
bean, but too hot and fast is at least as bad ,to my taste.
 As has been mentioned, Ethiopian coffee, at least the whole
dried, will always have yellow beans at the end. Tom swears you
should not remove them, but I can't help it. Has anyone on the
list ever put any aside to try them seperately? I keep meaning
to but...
 
Charlie
 
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5) From: Scott Jensen
I tried this little experiment Charlie, and was running for the can for
about 2 days.  Can't remember the exact details but it cured me of
experimenting in that fashion!! :)  I do remember I tried it two ways:
1.   Save all the yellow, very light brown, or any really far off bean after
the roast.
2.   Save every black, bug bitten moldy looking bean, separated pre-roast.
It took a long time to save up enough #2 for a hearthware roast.
Remembering back to that dreadful experiment- I think #1 wasn't too
terrible, and it was #2 that made me so sick.
Scott
<Snip>
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6) From: Ken Mary
It started as an experiment looking for the "brightness" that I seem to miss
in some coffees. But when I had nearly the best cup of coffee in my life,
the fast roasts continued. This 2.4 minutes is not that much faster than a
Freshroast. In the quote from Illy & Viani that I posted recently, roasts
can be done in 1.5 minutes and even 60 seconds, but with the possiblility of
some incomplete reactions. They describe it as high yield or fast roasting
and say that the "extraction yield at brewing is 20% higher". They also
state that "High yield roasting has not yet been organoleptically optimized
for [espresso due to] high residual CGA [chlorogenic acid]".
Things happen so fast it is scary. There is not much time to record data
during the roast. The dense blue/grey smoke at the end makes you think the
beans are on fire. First crack begins at 1 to 1.2 minutes then rapidly
accelerates without slowing into second crack. Second can only be detected
when the divots start blowing out onto a tray. Cooling is done in the
roaster, and usually reaches 35C in 2 to 3 minutes.
I have no adverse effects from the coffee, nor does it taste too bright or
acidy. It is not bitter or grassy. It is equal or better in flavor than my
best slow roasts except for some missing chocolate.
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7) From: Ken Mary
I have been leaving the light beans in my slow roasts, but after smelling 
those foul "peanuts" from the fast roast, I am going to reconsider. I do not
want anything that bad in my coffee. It is as simple as sorting out the
lightest colors, then breaking some for evaluation. The Indonesians from
SM's need no pre- or post- sorting, they roast evenly due to the quality
preparation.
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8) From: EuropaChris
I've noted some similar observations.  I can roast to charcoal in minutes with my modded PII, or roast forever.  The faster roasts tend to be very aromatic and flavorful as drip or vac brew, but REALLY harsh and sour as espresso.  My best espresso shots come from using my Popcorn Pumper, which due to mass, does a nice even ramp up to first, a nice delay, then a rockin' second crack, with end-of-roast being 8 to 10 minutes total time.
My Turbo oven does a similar profile, but gives a much flatter tasting brew and little aroma to the beans in the jar.  I think the Turbo oven doesn't have the horsepower to put enough energy into the beans at the end of the roast.  The temp rise is too slow to kick off the necessary reactions, even though it can get to 450-500F air temps.
Chris
"Ken Mary"  wrote:
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9) From: Chris Peters
I've been getting some excellent roast results with my Popcorn Pumper as
well.  I've noticed that the cooler ambient temps this fall have lengthened
the roasts by a few minutes.  I've also been able to lengthen the roast by
unplugging the butter dish heat source that I had plugged earlier.  I've
been in the 10 minute range for full city.  The taste from a longer roast is
much more appealing to my palate.
On another note, I appreciate the Krups Gusto recommendations a few weeks
ago.  I picked one up on Amazon and am having a blast learning how to use
it.  I'm beginning to make some amazing Americano's.  The only drawback I
see is the small boiler chamber and the lack of a hot water source.
Chris in KC

10) From: Charlie Herlihy
--- Ken Mary  wrote:
<Snip>
 I figured that "high yield" was the reason for so much high
temp roasting going on comercialy. What I've really found out
through this list is how different each of our tase preferences
can be. I may well be hypersensitive to CGA. It may well be the
substance that makes my throat burn when it hasn't been roasted
out. It is more noticable in espresso and in every *bucks shot I
ever tried. 
<Snip>
<Snip>
 We're both real coffee lovers and try everything to get the
best from it, and come to oposite conclusions here. How 'bout
that? ;o) Another thing-I've roasted and consumed tons of coffee
and never once have I detected a taste that reminded me of
"grass", yet I see that "grassy" term used so often I guess that
plenty of folks do. I'm not alone in liking slower roasts, but
how about never tasting  lawn clippings?
Charlie
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11) From: Chris Peters
My first roasting experience was a Costa Rican from the sampler pack roasted
to City.  The next morning I brewed a cup in my french press and took a sip.
I thought I had mistakenly brewed up some "lawn clippings" in place of the
coffee.  It was not a good experience.  The "grassiness" did subside after a
day or two of rest.  I did conclude that the Costa Rican was not one of my
favorites.  I much prefer a less-bright, full bodied Indonesian.
Chris in KC


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