HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Oxygen absorbers -- long (23 msgs / 529 lines)
1) From: Irene and Lubos Palounek
Recent discussions on the Sweet Maria's Homeroast list convinced me that the
best way to store or send / give away freshly roasted coffee beans is to
vacuum-seal small batches of coffee with a small bag of oxygen absorber.  We
have the Tilia vacuum machine. I plan to cut their Tilia FoodSaver Rolls
into pieces about 11.5 by 11.5 inches, divide the roll into two or three
sections by heat-sealing parallel to the existing sealed edges, heat-seal on
end, put in the proper amount of coffee into each section with a small bag
of oxygen absorber. Roll the open end around a thin dowel and put it into
the machine, and vacuum seal as close to the beans as reasonably possible.
Unwind the open end, put in more beans into the next sections and repeat the
"Roll the open end..." steps. I have tried it (without the oxygen absorbers)
and it works quite well.
The question is:
What size of the oxygen absorber should I order from Sorbent Systems?
Seehttp://www.sorbentsystems.com I will appreciate your comments,
corrections and additions to the following assumptions,  reasoning,
rationale, and calculations.
1) Roasted Coffee batch size
1a) Vacuum and French Press:
Standard SCAA brewing is 7.25 grams per 5 oz cup
Making 6 (5oz) cups batch in our vacuum brewer = 43.5g of coffee
For full 10 cups = 72.5 g of coffee
Similar reasoning for French Press
1b) Espresso based drinks
Our espresso is 16 to 17 g of coffee per double-shot cup.
Assuming 17 g per double shot and 4 cups per day = 68g of coffee
1c) Therefore, I will vacuum bag about 70 g batches of roasted beans.
2) Oxygen per batch
2a) There is approximately 20.5% oxygen in air
2b) I do not know the packing density of coffee beans. Let's assume that it
is similar to sphere packing.
2c) Packed spheres have a packing density of approximately 64%.
See the Introduction to Sphere Packing athttp://www.mdstud.chalmers.se/~md7sharo/coding/main/node37.htmland
elsewhere. Also search the Net for Kepler conjecture. (In a booklet
published in 1611, J. Kepler described the arrangement of equal spheres into
the family cannonball arrangement. He asserted that The packing will be the
tightest possible, so that in no other arrangement could more pellets be
stuffed into the same container. This assertion has come to be known as the
Kepler conjecture.)
3) Coffee volume per weight
3a) The dark-roasted coffee we use is, for example, The SM Monkey Blend. 100
cc of Monkey Blend weights 27.9g -- that translates to 3.584 cc of whole
beans per 1g.
3b) For the light-roasted coffees we use: 100 cc of beans weights 35.5g --
that translates to 2.817 cc of whole beans per 1g.
3c) Because I will be bagging about 70g batches, I will have between
250.88cc to 197.19 cc of coffee beans per batch. Let's assume 250cc batches.
4) Vacuum bagging of 250cc batches of whole roasted beans assuming 75%
packing density (25% void space between beans.) In vacuum bags, there is no
"headspace" above the beans. For 250cc of coffee:
4a) there is 62.5 cc of air (or about 12.5 cc of oxygen) w/o vacuuming the
bag, or
 -- 6.25 cc of air (0.62 cc of oxygen) for 90% vacuum
 -- 12.5 cc of air (1.25 cc of oxygen) for 80% vacuum.
4b) With about 50% contingency, I assume that I need to absorb 20 cc of
oxygen per batch of vacuum-bagged coffee beans.
5) Vacuum container.
5a) A half-full 1 liter (about 32 fluid oz) container has 500 cc of air in
the headspace plus 125 cc of air in the void-space between beans, for a
total of:
 -- 625 cc of air (125 cc of oxygen) without vacuum
 -- 62.5 cc of air (12.5 cc of oxygen) with 90% vacuum
 -- 125 cc of air with (25 cc of oxygen) 80% vacuum.
6) Conclusion.
6a) The 25cc Sorbent System bags absorb 25cc of oxygen.  Order them for
vacuum-bagged coffee. They measure 35 x 45 mm and cost $12.50 per box of
200.
6b) The 300cc Sorbent System bags absorb 300cc of oxygen. Order those for
coffee stored in vacuum containers at $15.30 per 100 bags. Use two of bags
if not vacuum-sealing the 32oz container.
---
Thanks for your thoughts and opinions, Lubos
homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast

2) From: R.N.Kyle
That's a good idea, I remember someone on the list, a while back, can't =
recall who, but I do remember they asked Mike M., because he seals up =
packs for his wife to take to work. if he ever tried to string the weeks =
worth of packs together. I believe he said that he did not. 
Thanks for the tip, I will give it a try. I will also be purchasing some =
of the O2 absorbers.
Ron Kyle
Anderson SC
rnkyle

3) From: TFisher511
Have you considered preheating the coffee immediately prior to vacuum 
sealing? As the beans cool the remaining pressure inside the sealed bags 
should decrease further minimizing the oxygen content in the bags.
Rather than place the oxygen absorbers inside the bags, how about a nitrogen 
purge immediately before sealing.
Just a couple more ideas. Actually I just drink my coffee within six days of 
roasting and minimize all the brain strain. And I still plan to take what's 
left with me:-)
Terry F
<Snip>

4) From: Ryuji Suzuki -- JF7WEX
I have two points.
You assumed "per cent vacuum" or more correctly the sum of partial
pressures of every gas in the air. However, you can look up the spec
of the vacuum pump. If I remember correctly, Tilia said 20 some inches
of mercury.  From that figure you can figure out how much oxygen you
need to deal with.
How does the oxygen absorber come in? If it comes in a big bag (their
web page doesn't say they come in small packs of 6 or something like
that), how are you going to store them? How you know the oxygen
absorber is still good or gone bad?
--
Ryuji Suzuki
"I can't believe I'm here.
People always say that I'm a long way from normal."
(Bob Dylan, Normal, Illinois, 13 February 1999)
homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast

5) From: Dan Bollinger
Lubos and all.  I realize that bean storage is a big deal for many people on
the list and the topic of many threads on the list, too. From my perspective
(read Dan's opinion based on less that one year of roasting Specialty
Coffee) it is a moot point.  I see no reason to go to the extremes that
people are talking about for gifting people with fresh roasted coffee.  To
me, the emphasis is on FRESH roasted coffee.  I put my gift beans into
ordinary zip-lock bags from Boxes-R-Us (they have smaller sizes than grocery
stores sell).  I just tell my friends "this is persisable food, make this
coffee in the next few days."  To me, the crucial point is this: if my
friends are going to hold my beans for a couple of months before they get
around making the coffee then they didn't deserve the beans in the first
place.  I've even been known to say, "You are welcome to these fresh roasted
beans, but only if you use them in the next few days.  OK?"  If they
hesitate I just recind my offer. I'd rather throw the beans away than to
have someone let them go stale.  I know this is a hardline approach, but I'm
that kinda guy.  Just my thoughts and I'm in no way trying to change yours.
Dan
<Snip>
the
<Snip>
We
<Snip>
on
<Snip>
the
<Snip>
absorbers)
<Snip>
it
<Snip>
into
<Snip>
the
<Snip>
the
<Snip>
100
<Snip>
batches.
<Snip>
no
<Snip>
homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast

6) From: Dan Bollinger
fyi: 20 inches of Hg is about 2/3 vacuum or 66%.  That means that 2/3 of the
O2 is removed.  Dan
<Snip>
homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast

7) From: Mike McGinness
Foodsavers pull 25Hg per Tilia. What % would that be?
MM;-)
Variable Variac Rockin' Rosto Roasting
Miss Silvia brewin'
Limping along with Solis Maestro grindin'
Christmas is coming!!!
homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast

8) From: Ryuji Suzuki -- JF7WEX
From: "Mike McGinness" 
Subject: Re: +Oxygen absorbers -- long
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 17:47:49 -0700
<Snip>
84% (of 760mm Hg)
--
Ryuji Suzuki
"I can't believe I'm here.
People always say that I'm a long way from normal."
(Bob Dylan, Normal, Illinois, 13 February 1999)
homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast

9) From: Dan Bollinger
83%   Figure 30" Hg for 100% vacuum (close enough for our purposes).   Dan
<Snip>
homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast

10) From: jim gundlach
On Saturday, October 12, 2002, at 07:34 PM, Dan Bollinger wrote:
<Snip>
Amen brother.
Jim Gundlach
roasting over pecan wood fires
in La Place, Alabama
homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast

11) From: Jim Garlits
Coffee snobbery ain't for everyone.  Preach it!  One of my favorite episodes
from when we became a roastery cafe was the guy who got all snippy because I
put an Indonesian Sulawesi out as coffee of the day and he said, "I only
drink American coffee."  Oh, the deprogramming we had to conduct.
Jim

12) From: Rick Farris
Actually, I believe that the Tilia is 25" Hg.
-- Rick

13) From: Rick Farris
Dan wrote:
<Snip>
Are you suggesting that it's a linear relationship?
--Rick
homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast

14) From: Tracy Clevenger
How do I unsubscribe from this list?
Thank you. 
Tracy Clevenger

15) From: Dan Bollinger
Rick, yes it is linlear, at least until you get to extremely high vacuums.
The formula is P1V1 = P2V2  Dan
<Snip>
homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast

16) From: Dan Bollinger
Tracy,  This page describe the process:http://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html<Snip>
homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast

17) From: Rick Farris
Dan wrote:
<Snip>
Oh yeah.  I remember that!  ;-)
-- Rick
homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast

18) From: Irene and Lubos Palounek
I talked with Sorbent Systems's Mr. Frank Camargo at 322 277 4700 extension
12 and he told me that:
 - the regular oxygen absorbers absorbs just the oxygen; they do not absorb
CO2 (carbon dioxide)
 - they also have a special version that absorbs both the oxygen and carbon
dioxide, but they are available only in large cases of 2,500 or more.
Regards, Lubos
homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast

19) From: Mike McGinness
From: "Irene and Lubos Palounek" 
<Snip>
extension
<Snip>
absorb
<Snip>
carbon
<Snip>
Fascinating, that may be what Mr. Camargo said, but I'm going by what's
printed on the 25cc Fresh Paks themselves that I purchased from them. Either
he's wrong or their package labeling is wrong. Or they sent me the wrong
ones! These clearly are printed "Oxygen & Carbon Dioxide Absorber".
MM;-)
Variable Variac Rockin' Rosto Roasting
More confused than ever
homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast

20) From: Irene and Lubos Palounek
Sorbent's System's Mr. Camargo said that:
 - the regular oxygen absorbers absorbs just the oxygen; they do not absorb
CO2 (carbon dioxide) 
 - they also have a special version that absorbs both the oxygen and carbon
dioxide, but they are available only in large cases of 2,500 or more.
and Mike replied: 
Fascinating, that may be what Mr. Camargo said, but I'm going by what's
printed on the 25cc Fresh Packs themselves that I purchased from them.
Either he's wrong or their package labeling is wrong. Or they sent me the
wrong ones! These clearly are printed "Oxygen & Carbon Dioxide Absorber". 
---
Mike, it seems that you have bought the "special version that absorbs both
the oxygen and carbon  dioxide", correct? I see no reason why you should
assume that they are the regular "just oxygen" absorbers. What was printed
on the shipping list? Perhaps you should send one Fresh Pack back to Sorbent
Systems and ask them to confirm that it is correctly labeled. I guess that
should be an easy task for them.
Regards, Lubos.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homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast

21) From: AlChemist John
Sometime around 17:15 10/14/02, Mike McGinness typed:
<Snip>
I will concur with that.  They do say they absorb both.  BTW, Mike, how are 
the Fresh Paks shipped.  Are they vacuum sealed?  How are you keeping your 
unused ones from absorbing atmospheric oxygen and being depleted before you 
have a chance to use them?
--
John Nanci 
AlChemist at large
Roasting and Blending by Gestalt
homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast

22) From: Mike McGinness
From: "AlChemist John" 
<Snip>
are
<Snip>
you
<Snip>
They're shipped vac sealed. I keep them vac sealed in bulk and make up a few
small two in a pak little vac bags for the next or two use...
MM;-)
Variable Variac Rockin' Rosto Roasting
Miss Silvia brewin'
Limping along with Solis Maestro grindin'
Christmas is coming!!!
homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast

23) From: Mike McGinness
From: "Irene and Lubos Palounek" 
<Snip>
Sorbent
<Snip>
I didn't intend to 'buy' the O/CO2 absorbers, I ordered O absorbers. Their
website doesn't even mention the O/CO2 absorbers that I could find. The
shipping list states "Oxygen Absorbers 25cc". Seems I should contact them
about shipping the wrong product!
MM;-)
Variable Variac Rockin' Rosto Roasting
Miss Silvia brewin'
Limping along with Solis Maestro grindin'
Christmas is coming!!!
homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast


HomeRoast Digest