HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Smoky Beans (was Toaster Roaster) (42 msgs / 1025 lines)
1) From: Mark A. Chalkley
I'm very interested in this line of discussion, too.  I'd really like
my next roaster to be a drum-type for this very reason.  At least I
think I would.
You mentioned smoked meats.  There's also smoked cheeses.  Grilled
anything exhibits a related flavor.  It's the same with Single Malt
Scotch. While there are unpeated Scotches, my favorites by far are the
Islays, most of which are heavily peated, and the favorites of my
favorites are the most heavily peated among those.  Others, of course,
prefer the "cleaner" taste of less peated distillations.  But, by and
large, the Scotches with the largest "cult" following are the heavily
peated "smokier" ones.
So, why should the same not be the case with roasted coffee?  Experts,
opine!!!
Mark C.
On Wednesday, November 13, 2002, 9:18:29 AM, AlChemist John wrote:
AJ> It appears the thoughts here are the drum roasting (HotTop at least) gives 
AJ> a fuller, richer cup (as opposed to "cleaner, brighter????) that can not be 
AJ> explained JUST by the profile of the roast.  In much the same way smoke 
AJ> roasted meat is sooooo wonderful (treager?), is the smoking chaff one of 
AJ> the key elements to a stunning cup?
AJ> I am now wondering if I want chaff to remain with my beans in the roaster 
AJ> design rattling around in my head.
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2) From: F. M. McNeill
To me, smoked tea tastes like old tennis shoes!
--
Best,
Frederick Martin McNeill
Poway, California, United States of America
mmcneillhttp://www.fuzzysys.com*************************
Phrases of the week :
"There ain't no rules around here! We're trying to accomplish
something!" -- Thomas Edison (1847-1931)
 :-))))Snort!)
*************************

3) From: David Westebbe
<Snip>
They are smoked with hardwood embers, which have a delicious smelling smoke.
Grilled
<Snip>
That is from the intense heat causing the maillard reaction on the surface.
The other factor is the hardwood embers.  Stuff grilled using natural lump
charcoal tastes much better than stuff grilled with commercial briquettes,
which tastes much better than stuff cooked on gas, whicch tastes much better
than stuff cooked in a hot skillet, which tastes better than stuff which is
steamed.
Some gas grillers like the taste of burnt grease, which drips onto the lava
rocks.  I don't.
 It's the same with Single Malt
<Snip>
Burning peat smells delicious.
 Others, of course,
<Snip>
My guess is that burning chaff smells awful.  but that is just a guess.
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4) From: Mark A. Chalkley
I wondered when Mr. BBQ would chime in... ;>)
Further smart-alec retorts (and otherwise) below:
On Wednesday, November 13, 2002, 12:46:07 PM, David Westebbe wrote:
DW> That is from the intense heat causing the maillard reaction on the surface.
DW> The other factor is the hardwood embers.  Stuff grilled using natural lump
DW> charcoal tastes much better than stuff grilled with commercial briquettes,
DW> which tastes much better than stuff cooked on gas, whicch tastes much better
DW> than stuff cooked in a hot skillet, which tastes better than stuff which is
DW> steamed.
Agreed to completely.  Seconded.  Hear, hear!  Etc. etc. etc.
DW> Some gas grillers like the taste of burnt grease, which drips onto the lava
DW> rocks.  I don't.
Agreed to also - almost as enthusiastically.
DW> Burning peat smells delicious.
And again - very enthusiastically.
DW> My guess is that burning chaff smells awful.  but that is just a
DW> guess.
I knew you were building up to something.   From my limited experience
in burning chaff, I think it smells like smoke.  I reaize that's a
very generic term, but what I mean is, I don't really remember any
highly disagreeable elements to it.  And it might be useful for me to
point out here that I'm _highly_ allergic to cigarette smoke, the
smoke of some incenses, etc.  As in allergic enough to only have 30
seconds or so exposure time to typical bar levels before I'm ambulance
material.  (Mercifully, not allergic to hardwood charcoal and coffee
roast smoke, though.)
So, I'm going to do a roast this afternoon, so I'll make sure it's a
dry-processed Yemen and burn some, just for you! ;>)
Mark C.
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5) From: David Westebbe
<Snip>
I've got a bunch of chaff all over my basement from an ill-advised
experiment with indoor roasting.  Maybe I'll collect it up and try burning
some.  I'll report back.
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6) From: AlChemist John
Sometime around 09:46 11/13/02, David Westebbe typed:
<Snip>
Any thoughts then what part of the roasting process makes for a 
different/richer cup in drum roasters( HotTop) than in air roasters if the 
temperature profiles are equivalent.  Chaff inclusion is the only 
difference I see.
BTW, I noted when looking up an alpenrost, it says that it removes the 
chaff.  Does the HotTop?  I recall raves about the HT but not the 
AR.  Chaff inclusion?  What is it about the AR that people do not care 
for.  It is 1/2lb capacity, a drum roaster and under $300.  Seems to fit 
specs I  have read here.  What is its flaw?
--
John Nanci 
AlChemist at large
Roasting and Blending by Gestalt
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7) From: David Westebbe
<Snip>
My guess, based on zero evidence, is that there is no appreciable difference
IF the roasting profiles are equivalent.
Those who know better than me should chime in with corrections.  I'd love to
review the methodology of their experiments.
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8) From: John Abbott
John,
	The ONLY remaining complaint that I have ((all else having been corrected))
is the chaff.  The chaff falls into a tray below the drum during the
roasting process. However about 30% remains with the beans.  There is NO
active extraction system. I place the cooled beans in a large bowl and
gently toss them next to a fan to remove last of it.   All of the HT owners
agreed immediately that the unit needs to be vacuumed out every couple of
roasts due to the collection that misses the chaff tray.
John - the retired version

9) From: AlChemist John
Sometime around 06:35 11/14/02, David Westebbe typed:
<Snip>
I mimicked the HT profile on my modified WBI (based on the other John's 
temp profile of HT) and found it did not improve the cup like the HT did.
<Snip>
Experiment request:
 From a recent article of The Malt Advocate, there was a good article on 
peat, peated whiskys and phenolic compounds giving the smoky (peated) 
character.  As I can run phenolic compounds at the lab on my GC/MS, I would 
love to compare one bean type, roasted by various methods.  Specifically, 
HotTop, Alpenrost, and one or more fluid roasters.  We would need to chose 
a bean and settle on an approximate roast  profile we could all 
meet.  Anyone willing to help.  Might tell us if the drum roasters add 
appreciable phenolics.  I would of course post the results.
John Nanci 
AlChemist at large
Roasting and Blending by Gestalt
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10) From: Jim Gundlach
John,
    Are you willing to test some roasted over pecan wood fire beans?
      Jim gundlach
On Thursday, November 14, 2002, at 09:23 AM, AlChemist John wrote:
<Snip>
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11) From: John Abbott
Pick a bean John, If I've got it, I'll HotTop it for you.  It might help if
you also specified the degree of roast. We all have varying tastes there.
John

12) From: David Westebbe
 Anyone willing to help.  Might tell us if the drum
<Snip>
I'd love to help.  Which bean would you think might have lots of phenolic
compounds?  Would that give the most stark contrast in results?
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13) From: Mark A. Chalkley
Now we're getting somewhere - excellent idea and thanks for
volunteering to do it!
I'd certainly be willing to contribute a test from a HWP.  Of course,
if someone wants to ship me their HotTop, I'll be glad to run some
tests with it, too. ;>)
Maybe we could use the SW chips that Dan came up with to settle on
final roast.  Obviously, for profile, with the HWP I'll get what it
gives me...
Mark C.
On Thursday, November 14, 2002, 10:23:41 AM, AlChemist John wrote:
AJ> Experiment request:
AJ>  From a recent article of The Malt Advocate, there was a good article on 
AJ> peat, peated whiskys and phenolic compounds giving the smoky (peated) 
AJ> character.  As I can run phenolic compounds at the lab on my GC/MS, I would 
AJ> love to compare one bean type, roasted by various methods.  Specifically, 
AJ> HotTop, Alpenrost, and one or more fluid roasters.  We would need to chose 
AJ> a bean and settle on an approximate roast  profile we could all 
AJ> meet.  Anyone willing to help.  Might tell us if the drum roasters add 
AJ> appreciable phenolics.  I would of course post the results.
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14) From: Ed Needham
I roast both ways...using my HWP and my BBQ grill drum roaster.  I prefer the
drum roasted beans by a wide margin.  I think the difference is in the length
of roast.  The air roasters finish a roast in less than ten minutes, some
less than five minutes.  When I roast on my BBQ grill, it usually takes 20 to
22 minutes, taking it about 30 seconds into second crack.  A 20 minute roast
in an HWP would have the fire department on the way.
The most significant variable affecting roast time seems to be the rushing
air, and it's effect to speed up the heat transfer to the beans.  Convection
ovens cook food much faster than conventional ovens, at the same temperature.
Most drum roasters circulate the air at least a little bit, but not enough to
effect the roast.  In a fluid bed roaster, the air is direct, intense, and
very hot, and transfers the heat much faster to the beans.  Has anyone ever
stuck a temp probe down into the heat chamber (not the roast chamber) of a
HWP?  I bet the temps are at, or near 500F degrees, and blowing fast.
On my BBQ grill roaster I measure temps of 500 to 525F on a dial thermometer
sticking into the side of the grill body at bean level.  I'm not convinced
that I am getting an accurate measurement, but at that reading, I get great
roasts.  I think the flame directly affects the measured temp through the
perforated ceramic tiles.  Most people who use drum roasters report much
lower temps, so I am probably getting a false reading.
Ed Needhamhttp://www.homeroaster.comed
****************************************
**********************************************

15) From: Jim Schulman
On 14 Nov 2002 at 18:12, Ed Needham wrote:
<Snip>
Good Guess! Both the FR and HWP have roughly 500F 
at the outlet from the coil at my regular 115V. 
The HWP drops a bit when it enters the chamber due 
it's larger size, the FR's drops hardly at all.
Roasters like the WB, which blow air at 350 to 
400, had trouble getting the beans "over the hump" 
to start the first crack. Almost everyone using a 
dimmer/variac with airroasters reduces the juice 
after the first crack starts to get more 
reasonable profiles.
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16) From: AlChemist John
Sometime around 08:57 11/14/02, Jim Gundlach typed:
<Snip>
Most definitely.  I meant to mention that in particular, but I lapsed.  My 
only constraint is wanting all of the same bean variety, to reduce variability.
John Nanci 
AlChemist at large
Roasting and Blending by Gestalt
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17) From: AlChemist John
Sometime around 09:39 11/14/02, David Westebbe typed:
<Snip>
I don't expect any of the unroasted beans to contain phenolics.  I expect 
if I find any, they would come from the roasting process.
--
John Nanci 
AlChemist at large
Roasting and Blending by Gestalt
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18) From: AlChemist John
Sometime around 11:17 11/14/02, Mark A. Chalkley typed:
<Snip>
Ok, so far it stand at the following for tests.
AlChemist John  Modified WBI and tester
Mark Chalkley   HWP
David Westebbe  willing to test, what type of roaster(s) do you have?
Jim Gundlach            Pecan fire roasted (really looking forward to 
seeing this one)
John Abbott             HotTop
Does anyone have a alpenrost that they would like to contribute beans from?
Any other roasters or roasting methods we might what to try?
MM with your rocking rosto?
<Snip>
Since this is primarily for quantitation and not necessarily for taste, my 
thought was simply going to the first beginning of 2nd crack, with your 
"normal" profile.  OTOH, I wouldn't mind taste testing and likewise 
reporting on the specifics of smoke and/or "fullness" character.
Beans type,  I am not really sure what to suggest as to what may show the 
best.  I have the following:
Java Jampit
Brazil mogiana
Brazil auction winner - Vargen Grande
The three Yemen Mokha's
Zambian AA Lupili
Zimbabwe Salimba
Sumatra triple pick
Timor
Uganda Budadiri
Both Kenya's
Thoughts and suggestions.  What kind of over lap do we have so far?
John Nanci 
AlChemist at large
Roasting and Blending by Gestalt
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19) From: Mark A. Chalkley
I have the Yemens, the Uganda, and a little Kenya Karumandi.
I'd suggest one of the Yemens, if the others have it, because they
have as much chaff as any...
Mark C.
On Thursday, November 14, 2002, 10:27:19 PM, AlChemist John wrote:
AJ> Beans type,  I am not really sure what to suggest as to what may show the 
AJ> best.  I have the following:
AJ> Java Jampit
AJ> Brazil mogiana
AJ> Brazil auction winner - Vargen Grande
AJ> The three Yemen Mokha's
AJ> Zambian AA Lupili
AJ> Zimbabwe Salimba
AJ> Sumatra triple pick
AJ> Timor
AJ> Uganda Budadiri
AJ> Both Kenya's
AJ> Thoughts and suggestions.  What kind of over lap do we have so far?
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20) From: jim gundlach
Of these I only have the Java Jampit, the Timor, and the Uganda 
Budadiri.  However, I am willing to order something else if need be.  
I'll probably put in an order around the first.
Jim Gundlach
roasting over pecan wood fires
in La Place, Alabama
On Thursday, November 14, 2002, at 09:27 PM, AlChemist John wrote:
<Snip>
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21) From: John Abbott
The Jampit is about the only non-central American that I have on hand.  I
just finished off the Budadiri.  I've got a short ton of Costa Rican -
Panama - Guatemalan and Kenya AA, Hawaiian, Isle of St. Helena, Old Brown,
Monkey Blend and some 1/2 pound samples of a non-descript nature.

22) From: Mark A. Chalkley
Well, I'm getting ready to place an order, so I can get whatever the
consensus becomes...
John, since you're doing the testing, why don't you make the call?
Mark C.
On Thursday, November 14, 2002, 10:23:41 AM, AlChemist John wrote:
AJ> Experiment request:
AJ>  From a recent article of The Malt Advocate, there was a good article on 
AJ> peat, peated whiskys and phenolic compounds giving the smoky (peated) 
AJ> character.  As I can run phenolic compounds at the lab on my GC/MS, I would 
AJ> love to compare one bean type, roasted by various methods.  Specifically, 
AJ> HotTop, Alpenrost, and one or more fluid roasters.  We would need to chose 
AJ> a bean and settle on an approximate roast  profile we could all 
AJ> meet.  Anyone willing to help.  Might tell us if the drum roasters add 
AJ> appreciable phenolics.  I would of course post the results.
AJ> John Nanci 
AJ> AlChemist at large
AJ> Roasting and Blending by Gestalt
AJ>
AJ> homeroast mailing list
AJ>http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast">http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroasthomeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast

23) From: Mike McGinness
From: "AlChemist John" 
<Snip>
from?
<Snip>
Sure, why not. Of your list I have Yemen Mokha Sana'ani-Haimi, Kenya
AA -Auction Lot '02 Karani, Uganda Budadiri, & Timor Aifu on hand. (or any
50 some odd other greens on hand including about 20 different Konas:-)
I could do a couple different roasts of the same bean. If shooting for start
of 2nd crack full city/vienna ('bout 460f my temps) say 13min (would be my
normal profile), 8 min (would be my old normal no variac 120v full blast
result), and oh maybe slow it down to 20min full drum emulation.
<Snip>
Good idea, as long as checking grind color, not bean exterior.
Guess I'd agree. It's your experiment so you decide the bean and what
weekend to roast. (We're sending the beans to you for analysis I presume.
How much to send you? Couple ounces each roast? Didn't follow the whole
thread. Been hectic since getting back from vacation. 16hr doozy of workday
today:-(
MM;-)
Variable Variac Rockin' Rosto Roasting
Miss Silvia brewin'
Still need to make a batch of 'Road Warrior' chilled white chocolate Kona
mocha before going to bed or won't have any for tomorrows computer battles!
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24) From: David Westebbe
<Snip>
Can you explain to a non-alchemist what the significance would be of the
presence of phenolics?
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25) From: David Westebbe
<Snip>
Modified 1250 watt Wear-Ever Popcorn Pumper.  The airflow is increased to do
a full cup of light beans like Monsooned Malabar, and somewhat lesser
amounts of dense or aerodynamic beans.  It includes the TriacHack to cut the
airflow for smaller batches and/or hotter temps and/or cooler ambient temps,
parallel circuit modified heater elements for more BTUs, and a switch to cut
the heater for "human thermostat" temp control and to initiate fast cooling.
<Snip>
Ulp.  None.  But I'm very willing to put in a quick mail-order to match the
consensus choice.
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26) From: AlChemist John
Sometime around 00:23 11/15/02, Mike McGinness typed:
<Snip>
 start
<Snip>
 my
<Snip>
Since you brought it up, yes, those sound good.  I was wondering about a 
drum emulation roast.
<Snip>
Unless I am convinced otherwise, I don't see the point of this.  Maybe just=
 
for information, but I think just into 2nd crack is close enough for the 
needs of this test.
<Snip>
Ok, it looks like the most common denominator bean is the Ugandan.  John 
Abbott, that is one you did not have.  Can you get it and/or mind getting 
it?  I really want the HotTop in the  test, so I could send you some to 
roast if need be.  How much would you need?  Your call.
2 oz should be more than enough.  I am thinking I may do both a ground and=
 
unground extractions to highlight surface vs interior content.
MM, you haven't follow the whole thread? :-O  That ok.  I think this is the=
 
synopsis
I have noticed statements and observations like:
fluidized bean roasting gives a brighter, cleaner cup (MY subconscious 
translations [huh, less complex, not as rich)
the HotTop has given the best coffee I have ever had, incredibly complex 
[wonder why, temp profile]
well I matched the HT temp profile, coffee is OK [well, not the temp, maybe=
 
something else]
drum roasting seems to produce more smoke than an air roaster [smoke huh, I=
 
like smoked food]
the traeger smoked beast was to die for [droool]
Hypothesis
Maybe the smoke in drum roasting is what is the key to a really complex, 
outstanding cup.
Scotch is analyzed for phenolic compounds to quantitate smoke levels, maybe=
 
the same will work for coffee
I analysis for phenols (and lots of other compounds[BTW, who does NOT want=
 
to know if I find pesticides?) for a living, I could do the testing, hence=
 
this thread.
I am not yet sure when to start this, probably in the next week or two, 
after everyone has beans who needs them (and hopefully after someone with 
an alpenrost pipes up)
-
John Nanci 
AlChemist at large
Roasting and Blending by Gestalt
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27) From: AlChemist John
Sometime around 18:19 11/14/02, AlChemist John typed:
<Snip>
Jim,
I meant to ask, is your drum perforated or solid?  Now that I think about 
it, do you use a drum or something else?
--
John Nanci 
AlChemist at large
Roasting and Blending by Gestalt
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28) From: AlChemist John
Sometime around 05:40 11/15/02, David Westebbe typed:
<Snip>
Phenolics compounds are a large part of what gives smoked foods their 
characteristic flavor.  Some people really seem to like drum roasted beans 
better than air roasted.  I am wondering if drum roasting contributes 
phenols, or even some other compounds that change the character and 
complexity of the beans.
--
John Nanci 
AlChemist at large
Roasting and Blending by Gestalt
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29) From: John Abbott
John, along with incredible flavor I have also noted that the drum beans
don't seem to stay fresh as long.  How does that work into your equation?
John - the retired one

30) From: Mike McGinness
From: "John Abbott" 
<Snip>
Is it that they don't seem to stay fresh as long or that they are good to
drink sooner than speed roasts which need to sit for a couple days to mellow
out? In other words, if drum roast 'ideal' at for sake of example 12hrs and
same bean speed roast 'ideal' at 36hrs, from 'ideal' points do they then
stale at same rate?
MM;-)
Variable Variac Rockin' Rosto Roasting
Miss Silvia brewin'
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31) From: John Abbott
Its a little of each I think.  The resting periods are much shorter, but
from peak to slop is very short on the drum beans where it is more gradual
from the fluid bed beans.  One of the things that I did (BIG DUMMY) was dump
a full pound of beans into the Solis Master for a party - and folks didn't
attack it - so I just worked them off over THREE days - that would be THREE
days sitting in open air! YUK!!   But even carefully stored and controlled
beans drop off faster from the drum - which isn't a problem because we kill
1/3 pound a day most days.
John - playing with the La Pavoni again

32) From: Les & Becky
When I have roasted over Myrtlewood, I notice the hint of bayleaf in the
coffee. Myrtlewood is in the bayleaf family.  For all of you Oregonians on
the list, don't buy bayleaf for your cooking.  You can use one half the
amount by using a Myrtlewood leaf!  Lest anyone have an anxiety attack
concerning my burning Myrtlewood, I have to do something with my scraps!
While, camping I roasted over Madrone, and the beans took on a nice clean
smoke flavor.  I roasted Uganda Bugesu each time I have done roasting over
the fire, so the bean has been the same.
Les
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33) From: David Westebbe
John sez:
<Snip>
Interesting.  Do you have any capability to test for esters, nitrates or
nitrites? Does it make any sense to you to test for such things?
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34) From: AlChemist John
Sometime around 19:46 11/16/02, David Westebbe typed:
<Snip>
I can generally look for esters when I look for the phenols and can test 
for the NO2 and NO3, but I am not sure why.  I know, in general, esters 
give a fruity component to food.  I have no knowledge what levels of the 
other component would signify.  Why did you pick these?
John Nanci 
AlChemist at large
Roasting and Blending by Gestalt
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35) From: AlChemist John
Sometime around 09:03 11/15/02, John Abbott typed:
<Snip>
What do you consider the life expectancy of drum roasted?  Although I 
rarely have it around that long, I find 4 days is about my max for air roasted.
I would hate to build a drum roaster with a capacity larger than 
consumption/freshness ratio.
--
John Nanci 
AlChemist at large
Roasting and Blending by Gestalt
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36) From: John Abbott
John,
	Using the FR or FR+ I would roast CRLM and then let it settle for 2 days
before brewing with it on day 3. The beans would maintain a fresh bright
flavor for another 3 days before beginning to decline and would take about
The same CRLM is ready to drink on day two, but at day five they are clearly
flat.  Beans that I vacuum seal within minutes after roasting seem to be
really good immediately after opening, but again on the fourth day from the
bag the flavor is flat.  This normally isn't a problem because I put enough
beans in the hopper for one full days use (1/3 pound) and if I hadn't really
messed up and put a full pound in the roaster for a party - that failed to
drink it dry (too late in the evening I guess) - and then I had the same
beans for four days. I vacuumed the last of them out and tossed them.
	I've just FR roasted some Guatemalan and immediately sealed it, then did a
HotTop roast and sealed it.  I'll see how they both fair in a couple of
days.

37) From: David Westebbe
<Snip>
Because the lore says that both phenols and esters are produced by burning
hardwood (which is used for smoking food) and that the "smoke ring" in a
properly smoked piece of barbecue is caused by nitrites form particulate
matter in the smoke.
I have read chemists' explanations of the smoking process, as applied to Q,
but don't pretend to understand it.
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38) From: AlChemist John
Sometime around 07:18 11/17/02, David Westebbe typed:
<Snip>
I am not sure, but I thought that the smoke ring is the reaction of smoke 
and the NO2 that was added to the meat(as a preservation) before smoking, 
thus no correlation here.  Anyone know whether this is correct or not?
<Snip>
Q?
--
John Nanci 
AlChemist at large
Roasting and Blending by Gestalt
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39) From: Andrew Thomas
--- AlChemist John  wrote:
<Snip>
<Snip>
barbeQue is my guess
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40) From: Rick Farris
AlChemist John wrote:
<Snip>
Absolutely not.  I often get a good smoke ring on chicken, fresh from the
market.
-- Rick
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41) From: David Westebbe
<Snip>
The color of stuff like commercially prepared ham is produced by chemical
nitrites (or nitrates?) added as preservatives, but my understanding is that
WRT unbrined meats, like shoulders and briskets, the smoke ring is produced
by chemical reactions between constituents of the smoke and the meat itself.
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42) From: AlChemist John
Sometime around 23:12 11/17/02, Rick Farris typed:
<Snip>
Thanks.  Like I said, I had not idea where the smoke ring came from.   I 
still hold that it is not particularly applicable to what we are doing 
here.  I might try a couple for NO2, but doubt any more.
--
John Nanci 
AlChemist at large
Roasting and Blending by Gestalt
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