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Topic: Anarchy in Coffeeland! (16 msgs / 328 lines)
1) From: Lee XOC
Some serious stuff going on in the thread which is linked below.  I
would very much appreciate if the more experienced and learned
espresso-heads among us would take a few minutes to read through this
and the article to which it refers (article link found in the thread),
and let us know your findings.http://stratsplace.zeroforum.com/zerothread?id%91Thanks,
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Lee / San Diego
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2) From: Jim Schulman
The thread was initiated by Randy Glass, http://www.quiknet.com/~frcn/Coffee/Coffee.html
an alt.coffee regular, to rebut a perfectly 
ridiculous article on how to make good coffee by 
Mr. Rogov (it can be found on the same site. 
Since Mr. Rogov claims to be an authority, much 
consulted by restaurateurs desiring to improve 
their coffee, Randy's tone was not quite a model 
of diplomacy. The responses by Mr. Rogov's fans, 
and various other alt.coffee regulars were even 
less so. 
Mr. Rogov capped the gaffe-fest by locking the 
thread on the grounds that the people disagreeing 
with him had taken a sarcastic tone. (hard to 
avoid, since he said that espresso is best made 
with 380F steam -- set your boilers to 5 bar, and 
block all the safety valves for that, btw)
Barry Jarrett started a new thread in which he 
very politely pointed out the articles errors. 
This may restore some sanity to the board.
The alt.coffee view of the matter is found at
http://makeashorterlink.com/?B268520C2On 12 Dec 2002 at 11:51, Lee XOC wrote:
<Snip>
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3) From: Andrew J. Lynn
I read the article and some of the discussion thread, and though I won't 
claim to be an expert and I don't know who Rogov is, there are a lot of 
things in the article that are wrong, and Rogov's attitude in the forum 
thread leaves a lot to be desired.  It's aimed at restaurant managers 
who don't necessarily know a lot about coffee, and would probably do 
them more good than harm, but:
If you ground coffee very finely then forced steam at 320F through it 
you'd get... hell, I don't know what you'd call it but it would be 
scorched, bitter and certainly not espresso.  If you were pulling a 
double, depending on how much metal is in your filter head at the end it 
might not even come out as liquid.  Espresso extraction should be a bit 
under the boiling point of water - there are lots of opinions on the 
exact temperature but it's around 190F.  Also I have no idea why you 
wouldn't use soap to clean your knockbox, and cappuccino does not 
involve whipped cream.
In the section on filtering it looks like he's talking about 
single-serving filter cones or Chemex pots, which make good coffee if 
you do it right.
He's right about steeped coffee being good and percolated coffee being 
bitter.  I don't know enough about Turkish to comment.
Lee XOC wrote:
<Snip>
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4) From: floyd burton
Hey maybe he is using Vietnamese Robusta-don't the big consumer product boys
prepare that by exposing it to live steam-at that temp-steam would be very
lively.  Now let's see-to get it that hot would take one humongous boiler at
least 3 to 400 PSI-and when you hit the grounds with pressure that
high-hmmm.
Look upon people like this as providing humor-that is very useful in this
world.

5) From: sho2go
Wow!  What a bunch of lily-livered, pedantic wimps, preferring PC etiquette
over accuracy.  Coffee and its variations are, of course, for the
masses.........
Mike

6) From: hlhurd
A quick WebFerret search of Daniel Rogov turns up the following information:
"Daniel Rogov is the restaurant and wine critic for the daily newspaper
Ha'aretz. He is also the senior writer for Wine and Gourmet Magazine and
contributes culinary and wine articles to newspapers in Europe and the
United States. "
He's all over the web and writes as though he has an expert level of
knowledge on everything from wine to chocolate to cigars.
His actual experience with coffee appears to be limited to ordering it in
the restaurants he writes reviews for.
I read the article, my favorite part is where he says Americans love
percolators,  guess he never heard of Mr. Coffee.
Holly
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7) From: Andrew J. Lynn
hlhurd wrote:
<Snip>
Yeah, that figures.
Andy Lynn
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8) From: jim gundlach
I seem to have missed the first post.   I read the exchange and  Mr. 
Rogov no expert on coffee or netiquette.
    Jim Gundlach
     roasting over pecan wood fires
     in La Place, Alabama
On Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 03:55 PM, sho2go wrote:
<Snip>
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9) From: Rick Farris
Jim wrote:
<Snip>
So why are we duplicating it over here?  Those of us who care to already
read a.c.  This is a nice quiet little place.  Why not leave the a.c threads
over there?
-- Rick
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10) From: Leslie Smith
He also claims the Italians invented vacuum coffee makers, when in fact the 
vacuum method was invented by a Scotsman.
   - Leslie
At 06:05 PM 12/12/02 -0500, you wrote:
<Snip>
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11) From: The Scarlet Wombat
I have to stick up for Randy Glass here.  His web site on espresso and 
roasting is what got me interested enough to get on here, begin roasting 
and get a good espresso machine, so I am a fan, you might say.  Plus, I do 
not see a reason to always be diplomatic with a writer who ought to know 
better and simply publishes incorrect information.
You may get more flies with honey than vinegar, as my mother said, but I'd 
rather have the vinegar and not have to wield a fly swatter. [grin]
Dan
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12) From: Lee XOC
< [mailto:homeroast-admin]On Behalf Of Rick Farris
< Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 12:04 AM
<
< Jim wrote:
<
< > The thread was initiated by Randy Glass,
<
< So why are we duplicating it over here?  Those of us who care
< to already
< read a.c.  This is a nice quiet little place.  Why not leave
< the a.c threads over there?
You can blame me for the cross-pollination.  I don't read any other
coffee lists, forums, or newsgroups, but this particular issue was
cross-posted to a private non-coffee mailing list I attend.  After
reading it, I was still left wondering if any of the items in question
in the original article could possibly be true, so I sought input here.
Btw thanks to all who weighed in on this.  I'm glad  to have some things
I thought I knew be confirmed.
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Lee / San Diego
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13) From: David Westebbe
<Snip>
Lee -
In which non-coffee list was the Rogov gaffe discussed?  I really would like
to know.
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14) From: Lee XOC
< [mailto:homeroast-admin]On Behalf Of David
< Westebbe
< Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 1:06 PM
<
< Lee -
<
< In which non-coffee list was the Rogov gaffe discussed?  I
< really would like to know.
It's a small private invitation-only email list, an offshoot of several
old iLink forums I attended starting in the early 90s.  One of the
members there reads alt.coffee apparently ... there seem to be 3 coffee
aficionados in the group, all in all.  It's called the Mozart Café, if
that matters.
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Lee / San Diego
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15) From: Mark Prince
At 05:00 AM 13/12/2002, you wrote:
<Snip>
Actually, it was invented by a Berliner. :) Then a zany French woman 
marketed the first sale-able model about 5 to 8 years later, then the randy 
Scotsman came on the scene with a side by side version around the same time.
Mark
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16) From: Leslie Smith
Oh darn, that's what I get for trusting the info I get on a website.
   - Leslie
At 02:45 AM 12/15/02 -0800, you wrote:
<Snip>
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