HomeRoast Digest


Topic: WAS:Stainless Steel NOW: Copper Ibrik? (31 msgs / 707 lines)
1) From: Michael Horowitz
Arn't ibriks made of copper? - Mike
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2) From: Ben Treichel
As long as there is water in the pot they really cant go past 212, 100C. 
 There is also a big difference between 200 & 500 degrees.
Michael Horowitz wrote:
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3) From: Ed Needham
As is the copper piping in most of our homes.  Everyone sick?  Hardly.
There may be some concern though, especially if certain foods come in contact
with copper, or even stainless steel.  CO2 seems to be particularly nasty
when in contact with copper.
Although it says it may be out of date...http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/CONSUMER/CON00036.htmlmentions a number of materials and their dangers.
Ed Needhamhttp://www.homeroaster.comed
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4) From: Ben Treichel
 From the link you posted,
Copper is an excellent conductor of heat, especially good for 
top-of-range cooking. Cooks often prefer copper cookware for delicate sauces
and foods that must be cooked at precisely controlled temperatures. 
    However, copper cookware is usually lined with tin or stainless steel.
FDA's Thomas says that the agency cautions against using unlined copper for 
general cooking because the metal is relatively easily dissolved by some
foods with which it comes in contact and, in sufficient quantities, can 
cause nausea, vomiting and diarrhea.
    The toxic effects of copper are well documented. I. Herbert Scheinberg, 
M.D., one of the nation?s experts on copper toxicity and professor of 
medicine at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine, cites a classic case 
reported by the New York Department of Health in the 1970s. Children
attending a movie matinee bought soda from the type of vending machine that 
drops a cup and fills it with carbonated water from one side and syrup from 
another. The check valve for dispensing the carbonated water was made of
copper. Overnight, a significant amount of copper had dissolved into the
carbonated water. The children became ill from drinking the soda
contaminated with copper salts. 
Doesn't seem like a good idea to me to use copper for a roasting drum. 
Just my $.02.
Ed Needham wrote:
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5) From: Rick Farris
Mike said:
<Snip>
Do you roast coffee in an Ibrik?
Remember, copper is a heavy metal.  It stays in your body.
-- Rick
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6) From: Rick Farris
Ed said:
<Snip>
Guffaw.  (Can I say guffaw?)  In the olden days pipes were lead.  You know
what happened with that.  Then they were copper.  Now they're plastic.
Copper is a heavy metal.  It goes into your body and never comes out.  And
we're talking about heating it to 500F and then standing there and
breathing the fumes.
-- Rick
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7) From: floyd burton
Yeah must be something to copper contacting food-all of my Fr copper pots
are either lined with tin or silver-just a couple of the latter for sauces.

8) From: Dan Bollinger
I don't think metals fume until at their melting point. Food reactivities
with copper are due to food chemicals (usually acids) in the presence of
water.  Most reactions require water.  Since roasting coffee is dry and
below the melting point of copper, I doubt if it results in a significant
health hazard. Where you draw the line with acceptable risk is a personal
decision. Me? I refuse to drive the car on New Year's Eve.

9) From: john kangas
It just depends on the conditions, I've looked into the dangers of various 
metals, being a welder. A lot of metals can be dangerous, under the right 
conditions. MSDS can be found online pretty easily, and some online metal 
suppliers give a bit of detailed info about thier product.
John
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10) From: Angelo
I have a few copper Ibriks and they are all tinned on the inside....
Angelo
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11) From: Tom Gramila
On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Dan Bollinger wrote:
<Snip>
			|
	The vapor pressure of copper at 500 Centigrade is 10^(-11) torr,
or about 10^(-14) atmospheres. 500C is way hotter than you want to get
your roast chamber, so you are not breathing a whole lot of copper here in 
any case.  At 500F, you are likely looking at approx 100,000 times less 
copper than even this  in the air.
	Copper is desired in cooking because of its high thermal 
conductivity, and because it "catalyses" certain  processes, like the 
whipping of egg whites.  Dont forget, that low doses of copper are a 
natural part of our diet, there's even an RDA for it!  (about 2mg/day)
	Tom G.
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12) From: David Westebbe
<Snip>
IIRC, only the waste lines are PVC. The supply lines are copper.  And didn't
they used to be steel with lead solder?
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13) From: dewardh
Tom and Dan:
<Snip>
There is always a vapor pressure, but even at the melting it is low.  By the 
time there's enough copper vapor in the air to be dangerous you're long since 
dead from incineration.  But chemically copper is very reactive, especially 
with acids (an example is its rapid corrosion in DI or RO water) and it has a 
LD50 that is low enough to be of some concern.  Don't cook tomatoes in copper. 
 Heated in air it rapidly developes an oxide coating (black) which also has a 
very low vapor pressure.  That's what I would expect to see in a copper or 
brass roast chamber, under a coating of oil after the first few uses.
<Snip>
or about 10^(-14) atmospheres. 500C is way hotter than you want to get
your roast chamber
In my younger days I did a bit of high vacuum "stuff" . . . almost all our 
fittings were copper or brass, and I still have a box of them somewhere.  Never 
encountered copper vapor . . . not sure even how to measure it, it takes a 
whole lot of "sucks" to get close to 10^(-11) torr.
<Snip>
natural part of our diet, there's even an RDA for it!  (about 2mg/day)
As with so many things, dose matters . . .
Deward
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14) From: John Abbott
You Yankees with your indoor plumbing!!  Us Rebs know what to do with copper
tubing!!  Lightening rods!  White lightening rods :O)

15) From: Dan Bollinger
They used to be copper with lead solder.  Now potable water piping is either
copper with non-lead solder, PVC or PE.

16) From: Rick Farris
I don't think there's been a copper pipe put into a house in 40 years.  It's
too expensive.  In fact, I've seen houses torn down just to scavenge the
copper.
-- Rick
David:
<Snip>
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17) From: Ed Needham
I think I'd go with aluminum before considering copper.  Stainless is by far
my first choice though.  No rust, no corrosion, no turning green, very little
leeched metal.  PITB to work though, and $$$.
Ed Needhamhttp://www.homeroaster.comed
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18) From: Ed Needham
Ossifer...I don't have (hic) a drinking problem.  That'sssh my besht skill.
I haf a walking problem!
Ed Needhamhttp://www.homeroaster.comed
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19) From: sho2go
There was a temporary plastic replacement for copper in domestic water
supply pipes; it failed and had to be removed, particularly in hot water
service.  So copper has been and is still the mainstay.  There is a new
plastic, I think its a PVC, that comes in a spool and is flexible enough to
make each run in one piece.  It hasn't been approved by all the states, yet,
but its coming.  I've had to replace the hot water (copper) line under my
slab because it corroded and leaked.  What a mess!
Mike

20) From: Ed Needham
Rick...
Copper is pretty much the standard for plumbing in this neck of the woods
(Southern Indiana).  Not sure about other areas though.
Ed Needhamhttp://www.homeroaster.comed
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21) From: floyd burton
While looking how to hook up a techno, checked out my pipes and they are
CPVC or chlorinated PVC.  Adding the C makes the pipe more stable for higher
temps-the CPVC pipes look a bit yellow while the typical PVC poop pipe is
white.  Another benefit of CPVC over copper is freezing-a CPVC pipe will
survive freezing and copper will not.
So if I do make a BBQ roaster-depends upon how much the big box stores mark
down their Weber's-I will get some SS mesh and go that route.  Will probably
plug one end with a SS sheet and the other will be sealed off with a SS or
aluminum funnel with the bottom cut out.

22) From: Garrik
If copper were such a concern at low temperatures, I think someone would
have sued the pants off the gov't for making pennies out of copper for all
these years and making us carry them around.
-Garrik

23) From: john kangas
Ah, but they haven't since '82, they've been electroplated zinc (mixed with 
other stuff) since then, which is why if they're tossed into fish ponds, the 
fish die, pets eat them and get sick, kids eat them and get sick, no fun.
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24) From: Seth Goodman
At 04:18 PM 12/20/02 -0700, Rick Farris wrote:
<Snip>
In Massachusetts, and possibly other states as well, copper supply lines 
are still required by code.
Seth Goodman
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25) From: floyd burton
Still see copper tubing in all the big box stores in WI-most building codes
are controlled by the labor unions-particularly in the north.  Plastic is
cheaper and faster according to the plumbers I work around in Habitat.
Copper would probably be ok for a roaster-but SS will be my route.

26) From: Ed Needham
Stainless steel lids from a restaurant supply (or a used restaurant supply)
are fairly inexpensive and can be readily adapted as end caps.  An angled
funnel on one end keeps the beans in and allows pouring hot beans without
futzing with a hinged door.
Ed Needhamhttp://www.homeroaster.comed
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27) From: Oaxaca Charlie
--- Ed Needham  wrote:
<Snip>
Does that mean that you can't have more than 1/2 basket full,
even when the beans have expanded from roasting? The agitators
will pull the beans more than halfway up the basket, too.-won't
some pour out the funnel? The hinged door was a bit of work and
the spring holding mine closed is a potencial weak spot. I'm
probably not visualizing the "angled funnel" right. Got any
photos? I'm having a new, bigger drum made right now...
Charlie
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28) From: Ed Needham
This is a link on my web site to Dan Nathan's roast drum with the angled end
piece...http://www.k-point.com/page/drumroaster2.htmI don't think the beans could roast properly if they filled the drum half
way.  Some may have a different experience, but I think a batch no greater
than about a quarter the size of the drum height is about tops for even
roasting.  Larger drum, larger batch.
Ed Needhamhttp://www.homeroaster.comed
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29) From: Dan Bollinger
A mfgr. of drum processors says 1/6th is the optimal level for good
agitation, whether it be coating M&Ms, making pills or roasting coffee.  Dan
<Snip>
end
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30) From: James Gundlach
On Friday, December 20, 2002, at 11:39 PM, Ed Needham wrote:
<Snip>
This is not what I experienced, even at 3 rpm in a 6" diameter by 12" 
drum over a wood fire.  A larger batch actually roasted more evenly.  I 
see much the same when roasting with in a wok, small batches will be 
less even during the roasting process.  I don't have any idea why it 
should be the case.
Jim Gundlach
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31) From: Ed Needham
Maybe I need to explore larger batch sizes a little more aggressively with my
drum roaster.
Ed Needhamhttp://www.homeroaster.comed
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