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Topic: Full city question (19 msgs / 320 lines)
1) From: Jason Molinari
Hey, i'm a roaster newbie, so.... On SM Tom lists many coffee's to be roasted to full city. But in his pictorial, he has full city light and full city dark.
Can anyone tell me which i should roast to when doing a roast to full city? 10 seconds into 2nd crack (full city dark) or just a pop or 2 (full city light)?
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2) From: dewardh
10 seconds into 2nd crack (full city dark) or just a pop or 2 (full city 
Um . . . Uh . . . No ? ? ?
There is no *exactly* "full city" (it's a range, not a point), "when" you start 
hearing second crack (and start counting) will depend on the bean, the roaster, 
your ears, the phase of the moon and other unidentified but important 
variables, and, in the end, you have to roast for *your* taste, not anyone 
elses.  Even thermometer readings won't give you an *absolute* answer, because 
it's a range, because peoples definitions vary, and because we have not yet 
established a way to cross-calibrate our different thermometers and thermometer 
placements (I believe that many of us are comfortable with our "relative" 
readings, but not sure we've nailed the "absolute" numbers yet).  But I'll 
venture "full city" as ranging around 225C, give or take 5C maybe for the range 
from "light" to "dark" . . .
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3) From: Jason Molinari
hrm..yes..as i feared:) Basically its all up the the roaster...damnit, i'm an engineer, i like exactness! eheh
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4) From: Lowe, David
Well, I'm and engineer too... think of it as an opportunity to cultivate =
a more "artistic" side. And, as you may notice from some of the =
postings, it can be an adventure in endless tinkering with the hardware =
side of roasting. Now there is something an engineer can sink his/her =
teeth into!
Dave Lowe

5) From: Ben Treichel
Hey Jason,
Are you part of our group that is developing a profiling controller for 
homeroasters. Damit, we're going to make it exact!
Jason Molinari wrote:

6) From: Mike McGinness
From: "Jason Molinari" 
an engineer, i like exactness! eheh
Then use time, a thermometer to monitor roast, a variac for heater control,
a transformer boost trimmer controlled fan, find your sweet spot for a bean,
and get it every time!
MM;-) aka Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
Dual Variable Transformer Rosto Roasting
Rocky grindin' - Miss Silvia brewin'
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7) From: Ben Treichel
I like to think of it as the blending of the best things in life. Coffee 
and Computers. The only thing missing is SciFi.
Lowe, David wrote:

8) From: Mike McGinness
From: "Ben Treichel" 
When I get my new controller build and pics posted some may think even
Sci-Fi isn't missing:)
MM;-) aka Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
Dual Variable Transformer Rosto Roasting
Rocky grindin' - Miss Silvia brewin'
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9) From: Ben Treichel
miKe, miKe, miKe, you know how much hand tweaking you have to do. Were 
talking EXACT. Its like saying that all Hawaiian coffees are Kona's. ;-)
Mike McGinness wrote:

10) From: Jason Molinari
Yeah, i've taken on the hardware side already. I thermocoupled my poppery, if i can get an exact measurement of the chamber temp when i stop roasting, that would probably be pretty similar bean to bean..and relying on visual/nasal cues might be reduced...hrm..mabye if i stick the thermocouple directly to the metal of the roast chamber..but then again that wouldnt be bean/air temp. 
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11) From: jim gundlach
Full city is a color that is often reached just before or early in the 
second crack.  The external color of beans is not that good of an 
indicator of the degree of internal roast.  I would not be trying to 
roast to an arbitrary color like full city.  Instead, take a lot of 
what you have as a given early on and try to vary the degree of roast 
to see what you like best.  That way your decisions will lead you to 
something you like.  Then think about controlling other aspects of 
roasting later on.
Jim Gundlach
roasting in a wok and over pecan wood fires
in La Place, Alabama
On Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 12:08 PM, Jason Molinari wrote:
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12) From: Mike McGinness
From: "Ben Treichel" 
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: +Full city question
You're right Ben, that'll have to wait 'till version 2 of the controller...
MM;-) aka Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
Dual Variable Transformer Rosto Roasting
Rocky grindin' - Miss Silvia brewin'
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13) From: Rick Farris
Jason wrote:
Jason,  I'm not being a smart aleck, but by the time you have the skills to
consistently be able to get your roast stopped within 20 seconds of what
you're shooting for, you'll have no trouble telling whether you prefer the
coffee 2s or 10s into 2nd.
I know when you're beginning it seems like every roast has to be perfect.
After a while you'll realize that the way to learn roasting is to roast
coffee -- hundreds of times.  Don't worry about missing your stop-point by 8
-- Rick
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14) From: Myron Joshua
Rick wrote:
Thanks Rick---as a new roaster i appreciate this. One problem is being able
to check the results and make worthwile comparisons. Having to wait resting
time and trying to compare with a roast that may have been a week earlier is
not easy.

15) From: Jason Molinari
I see, ok, ill try and be less exacting for now:) But as Myron says, its hard to compare coffees when you have to wait 36hrs to drink it! AHHH i cant wait:)
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16) From: David Westebbe
Another thing to keep in mind is that there are a lot of variables.  If you
have a big load, for example, and the beans are turning over slowly, then
the ones on the bottom may well enter second crack before the ones on top
are hot enough.  And some types of beans have lots of outliers, so 2 seconds
into second crack will vary depending on a lot of different factors.
Like any kind of cooking, you need to use both your senses and your common
sense. A stopwatch is one tool, a good thermometer is another, but you also
need to use your nose and your ears and your brain.
I use a dimmer switch on the fan on my roaster, and when I turn it way down,
the beans turn over slowly while at the same time, the heat goes way up.  So
the beans on the bottom get HOT, while less air is available to transport
the heat to the top of the column of beans. If I hear second crack under
these conditions, I know that it is only a few beans on the bottom, rather
than the whole mass of beans.
Sometimes I'll crank the fan for a second, to turn over the beans while
keeping the temperature up, and then turn it down again so a new group of
beans are on the bottom.  If so, then the timing is very different from a
batch where I keep them all turning over rapidly.
Bottom line:  The stopwatch is only one tool.  You need to use as many
different tools as you have, with the most important one being your brain,
and the second most important one being your nose.
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17) From: AlChemist John
Sometime around 11:37 1/21/2003, Ben Treichel typed:
I recall that separate mailing starting some time ago.  How is it 
going?  Progress?
John Nanci 
AlChemist at large
Roasting and Blending by Gestalt
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18) From: Ben Treichel
AlChemist John wrote:
Yes, not as fast as we would like, but then we are all forced to have 
lives outside of our hobbies.
Hardware design finailizing, I'm learning my roasters charateristics and 
getting data for use when we start the software.
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19) From: Rick Farris
Jason wrote:
Not really.  Set aside a couple of hours for roasting, and roast up five or
six batches of the same greens.  Take the first batch all the way into a
rolling 2nd crack maybe further.  See oil.  That will tell you definitively
where it happens.  None of this "I think maybe I heard a little crack."
Then make each succeeding batch a little shorter, maybe "just into 2nd,"
"just before 2nd," "midway between first and second," and finally "just at
the end of first."
Now, 36 hours later, you can sit down with a Melitta one-cupper, or some
such, and taste each one in comparison with the others.  Remember, this is
all one kind of greens.  That way you really learn quickly the effect of
roasting on the coffee.
(I got kind of carried away, and went to the supermarket and bought six
one-cuppers at $1.50 each, so I could brew all six roasts at once.  Best $9
I ever spent.)
-- Rick
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