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Topic: wouldnt it be cool..... (30 msgs / 1241 lines)
1) From: Jason Molinari
Anyone remember that movie Twister? At the end they analyse the tornado by releasing thousands of little detectors that fly into the tornado...wouldn tit be cool if we could do the same in our air roasters:) Microscopic sensor detecting temp, velocity, and stuff like that...
ok...enough hollywood.
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2) From: Ben Treichel
Didn't you say that you were new to the list? I just wondering because 
you sound as crazy as the rest of us. :-D
Jason Molinari wrote:
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3) From: Mike McGinness
From: "Jason Molinari" 
releasing thousands of little detectors that fly into the tornado...wouldn
tit be cool if we could do the same in our air roasters:) Microscopic sensor
detecting temp, velocity, and stuff like that...
Jason! You've solved my design problem on version 2 home fluid bed roaster
design. Namely how to monitor bean movement for feedback to the computer so
the computer can properly adjust the fan voltage. If you missed previous
design thought ramblings it'll have dual stepper motor controlled variable
transformers (one for heater, one for fan) temp monitor feedback and needs
bean movement feedback... Now to figure out how to get them itty bitty
flying monitors out of the finished roasted beans:)
MM;-) aka Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
Dual Variable Transformer Rosto Roasting
Rocky grindin' - Miss Silvia brewin'
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4) From: Simpson
Great minds?
----- old a.c article ------------------------------
From: Simpson (tnjsimpson1)
Subject: Re: Hottop roaster-Badgett's newsletter-Jim Clark's reply  
Newsgroups: alt.coffee
Date: 2002-03-02 20:53:31 PST 
re: Sensing temp inside a sealed drum: Andy and I were talking about 
this the other day and what we really need is a 'smart bean' that 
would have a simple circuit on board to sense temp and transmit a 
very short distance to a receiver. Figure out how to use ambient heat 
of the roaster to power the little sucker and make it cheap (and 
brightly colored). Toss a couple (or more) into every drum roast and 
you've got real-time bean mass temps at simultaneous spots in the 
mass. Let em cool to ambient between roasts and use them again.
I'd pay a hundred bucks for some beans and a receiver, assuming a 
long life span for the beans (and I'd take care not to grind them 
up!) Hell, I'd trade the family cow for some of those beans! They'd 
be like magic!
-- end post ------------
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On 1/21/2003 at 3:42 PM Jason Molinari wrote:
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5) From: Dan Bollinger
What a great idea.  Talk about thinking outside the box.  They'd work great
in a drum roaster, but not a fluidized bed roaster. They'd be measuring air
temperature --not bean temps--  in a hot air roaster. Dan
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6) From: Ben Treichel
Dan Bollinger wrote:
Not true, but then you would have to mimic the thermal characteristics 
of the bean to be useful for either drum or hot air.
Then the discussion becomes the thermal characteristics of the bean at 
what point in the roast.

7) From: Spencer W. Thomas
The other day, our newspaper had an article about a "pill" that a 
patient could swallow.  This "pill" has a video camera and radio 
transmitter, and will send images of the inside of the digestive tract 
to a receiver outside the patient.  Very similar in concept.  (The 
"pill" is considered as disposable, which I think is a good thing -- 
retrieving it could be messy. :-)  About $450 per.
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8) From: Dave Huddle
Yep,  ads run on the radio here everyday about the pill camera.
Reminds me that my dad swallowed both his hearing aids a few years
ago.  He did recover them, but they were sort of crapped up!
COFFEE TOPIC - Dad started me drinking coffee (in my milk) about 56
years ago, when I was in the first grade.
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9) From: Marchiori, Alan
I disagree, if the 'smart bean' just transmitted the temp felt by the bean
back to a computer you could write some software to model the bean
temperature, and then compute the internal bean temp, and whatever else you
wanted.  Not sure how you would actually model the bean knowing only the
surface temp--I only argue that I think it would be possible.  I guess you'd
need to know something like the thermal conductivity of the bean, and I'm
sure moisture content would come into the equation (maybe density?).  Then
the computer could control & predict when the 1st/2nd crack would be (at
least the statistical average of the when it would be) so you could always
stop at just the right time.   
I suppose you could also do this with just a regular thermometer/themocouple
near the beans, it just would introduce some error.  And you'd have to be
able to somehow extract the model parameters from the green bean before you
roasted.  But wait, if you had a temp probe in the roast chamber you could
build a software model of the roaster and compute what temp the beans are
actually experiencing was.  Then input this into your bean model and derive
the internal bean temp.
So the whole system would be like:
Themocouple measurement --> Roaster model (some parameters) --> Bean model
(some parameters) --> Internal bean temp
I'm being rather optamistic here, but I'm interested to see what anyone
thinks are the fundimental bean parameters that relate to the roast.  I can
think of:
moisture content 
Out of curiosity I might start samepling my green beans to see how much the
density changes between different varieties.  (anyone ever do this?)

10) From: Dan Bollinger
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Ben,  Then the 'bean' is 'smarter' than I thought!   I like the idea.  =
The four hurdles are:  
1. approximate bean size and density so it moves with the beans
2. transmit the signal
3. mimic the endothermic and exothermic qualities of a bean
4. withstand the shock of tumbling and 500 while doing the above

11) From: Dan Bollinger
It's been done!  The internal bean temps during roasting have already been
measured. I have the paper article around here somewhere....  Dan

12) From: Marchiori, Alan
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
In order to do #3, it would be nice to have the endothemic and =
properties defined/measured.  Not to mention that it would be dependant =
the bean, the weather, and phase of the moon.  But really, see my last =
can anyone please define for me what these "endothermic and exothermic
qualities" are?  Or is knowing this the 10,000,000 dollar question that =
are all searching for?

13) From: floyd burton
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Hey-how about spending some of this creative energy to ID a TC probe system
that provides a digital readout and has a probe that is at least 12" long to
extend into a drum roasting chamber.  Did a roast a few days ago-at the end
of 18 minutes the beans were bright yellow-took two more roasts to get it to
second crack-and after 30+ minutes in a drum roaster-not much "varietal"
character left.  Yeah temp is all in the roaster and it does take a while to
heat up a 19# drum-still learning here in frigid WI.  OH also-open the
XXXgarage door while roasting with gas-forgot to till I started getting a
little lightheaded-NG.

14) From: Ben Treichel
Basically, I just don't know how to power it right now.
I also did like the comments about getting the data and 
modeling/processing the data on the computer. That could work.
I did have a dumb bean thought. There is thermal film available that 
turns color with temperature.
Think about that.
Dan Bollinger wrote:

15) From: Dan Bollinger
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Alan,  In simple terms: during the drying stage and all through first =
crack the bean is endothermic.  During the second crack (basically, all =
of what we call Full City) it is exothermic.  (I'm not sure what it is =
beyond Full City)  During Full City you can think of it as heating from =
the inside out.  Bean temps during this stage have been measured hotter =
inside than outside.  Dan

16) From: Jason Molinari
Dont forget surface area, which actually changes as the roast progresses, so you'd have to model that too. In essense it would be virtually impossible:)
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17) From: Angelo
At $450 a pop(poop?), I think many would not mind the chore....Heck, the 
Kopi Luwack people do it for a lot less....Although it might be fun to 
follow the pill on it's journey to Nirvana...
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18) From: Lowe, David
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
I would suspect that in simple terms it means the rate at which the bean =
absorbs and releases heat. To take it out of the coffee roasting =
context, we can calculate how much heat energy it takes to raise the =
temperature of a given amount of water by a specified amount. Various =
chemical and physical reactions can complicate things in that they may =
either absorb or release heat. Based on what I've read this isn't a =
simple thing for a coffee bean. At certain stages of the roast the bean =
is exothermic, that is it is actually generating its own heat, but at =
other stages it needs to absorb heat for the roast to progress.
Somehow it seems to me that it would be easier to do an experiment to =
correlate the temperature measured with 1st and 2nd crack. It would be a =
function of the roaster and the placement of the measuring device as =
well as anything that affects air flow rate and heating. 
Dave Lowe

19) From: dewardh
that provides a digital readout and has a probe that is at least 12" long to
extend into a drum roasting chamber.
I've pointed to, and others have reposted the link, a $20.00 digital TC 
thermometer, find the csi6500 at:http://www.cir.com/and also noted that the bead probe that comes with it fits snugly in 1/8 in.SS 
tube (available at most hobby shops and hardware stores for less than $5/ft. 
 Pack one end of the tubing with maybe 1/4 in. of heatsink compound and then 
crimp it off.  Then thread the bead probe into the open end of the tubing 
(probably best, but not necessary, to remove the ring of heatshrink first) 
until the bead is thoroughly immersed in the goo (at the other end of the 
tube).  It then reads at the tip of the tubing (where the heatsink grease is). 
 There are other ways to make a thermowell that works, too . . . thinwall SS is 
good because it doesn't conduct much heat from the stem to the tip (where the 
measuring is happening).  It's not real sturdy (although obviously much more 
rugged than the bead probe itself), but can be clamped, or itself slid through 
a reinforcing guide if needed.  The probe will work with many other TC reading 
boxes as well, including a number of PC cards, in case you want to "automate" 
someday . . .
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20) From: Ed Needham
I think a standard K-type thermocouple with a bead of substance enclosing the
tip, and suspended into the bean mass would measure the temps perfectly.  It
would have to be a material similar in density and thermal conductivity as a
bean (heck, it could BE a bean drilled with a thermocouple inserted, for that
matter), but I think it would work.  There is really no need to have the bean
isolated and floating free.  Separate bean probes could be made so one is
close to the bean surface, and one is close to the center core.  The only
problem would be conduction of heat through the wire to the center.  That
would skew things a bit, but measurements would be better than anything else
I've seen.
Ed Needham
To Absurdity and Beyond!http://www.homeroaster.comed

21) From: Ed Needham
I took my CO alarm out with me a couple of times when I roasted in the garage
with propane.  With the door closed, levels increased slowly, but enough to
make me a bit nervous.  I cracked the door 4" and levels dropped to almost
zero.  Nowhere near what the alarm says is harmful.  I've had no signs of CO
poisoning, headaches, nausea, dizziness, death...
Ed Needham
To Absurdity and Beyond!http://www.homeroaster.comed

22) From: Ed Needham
I saw charts done by Barry Jarrett this weekend showing temp curves of hid
Diedrich roaster plotted on top of each other measuring bean temperature
(probe in the bean mass) and roaster temperature environment.  It's the first
hard evidence I've seen of a true exothermic reaction within second crack.
Bean temps became higher than the roaster temps, and actually increased the
roaster temps.  Test was done with heat settings unchanged.  If I can get a
copy of them, I'll post it on my web site.
Ed Needham
To Absurdity and Beyond!http://www.homeroaster.comed

23) From: Simpson
It was said:
Say, if they were going to transmit short distances, would that be
'brewtooth' technology?
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24) From: Ben Treichel
Ed Needham wrote:
Are you sure that those are the signs of CO poising. I had a cup of 
Maxwell House forced on me at a clients site today. I had the same 
symptoms. I have to go back tomorrow; I'm not sure if I'd rather be 
dead. ;-)
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25) From: Ed Needham
Who knows what they put in their beans.  Probably leftover napalm residue.
Ed Needham
To Absurdity and Beyond!http://www.homeroaster.com

26) From: Jason Molinari
I was thinkging the exact same thing...drilling a bean and using some high temp RTV silicone to hold the probe in there. Problem is that you'd have to re-build this for every roast....very non-efficient..
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27) From: Dan Bollinger
Yes, please!
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28) From: dewardh
temp RTV silicone to hold the probe in there. Problem is that you'd have to 
re-build this for every roast....very non-efficient..
Nevertheless it would be a very interesting experiment . . . especially if 
simultaneous readings were taken from the "bean" probe and one or more 
"conventional" probes and/or IR.  I hope someone does it . . .
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29) From: Jason Molinari
I have a thermocouple reader, but i dont have a thermocouple i can spare, since i assume it would be ruined by the silicone...hrmm hrmm...i'll hae to think about it..
I agree itw ould be interesting to see how it relates to exterior temp. readings.
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30) From: Ed Needham
I'm not sure you would have to measure bean temp each time, as long as you
could correlate bean temp with time and roaster temp.  A few times would give
you a functional measurement of bean temp.
I don't think it would be that hard to have a Dremel close to the roaster and
stick a probe into the hole with a db of fast drying  (non-toxic) cement.
That is if you want the Full Monty of temp measurement, including small green
bean/larger roasted bean, high moisture green bean/ low moisture roasted
bean, exothermy, and all that other stuff that would be functionally
impossible to model.  C'mon all you thermometricians...go for it!
Ed Needham
To Absurdity and Beyond!http://www.homeroaster.comed

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