HomeRoast Digest


Topic: About out-gassing... (27 msgs / 844 lines)
1) From: Kathleen Tinkel
I'm trying to figure out how long freshly roasted beans need to out-gas -
at what point does their interaction with the dread oxygen begin to cause
staling?
Somewhere - was it here? - someone suggested that this is a matter of taste
- that some odd critters seem to prefer 'old' coffee... I think I'm one of
those, for many (though not all) beans. 
Right this minute (9 p.m.), I'm drinking some Golden Pwani Sumatran (almost
Full City) that I roasted at 11 a.m., and it's sublime. But that's unusual.
(This is a fabulous, full-bodied coffee that Tom just got - I do recommend
it if that's the style you like.) 
The Harrar 'Horse' I roasted on Tuesday at noon (City plus, I'd call it)
didn't seem to come into its own until Thursday morning (on Wednesday it
had a roughness that reminded me of the tannin in young wines; that had
vaporized by Thursday).
A batch of La Minita (roasted medium, before 2nd crack) wasn't really
interesting until 48 hours after roasting. 
All of these were ground in a Solis 166 at the midpoint, dripped through
paper, and drunk black...
Any thoughts?
Kathleen

2) From: Simpson
Kathleen-
You're right in that it seems to vary by bean. Beans with a softer character
like a Mexican seem to be drinkable faster as do darker roasts, within
reason. I think this points to your point about the Harrar... the
tannin-like taste. I don't know what the constituents of this taste is but
its very recognizable and unpleasant and seem to decrease by roast degree
and by more/less acidy varietal... I generally try to roast at least 24
hours before I run out, but if I've waited too late I'll roast a soft coffee
and another for use during the next week and even possible blending.
Speaking of blending, I've been roasting the Golden Pwani and some Yemen
Sanani (sp?) 2:1 as a mocha-java and it is some of the most delicious coffee
I have ever had in my life. I roast fairly slowly in a fluid bed roaster and
then finish off with a bean temp of about 435... right between the end of
1st and the onset of 2nd on my equipment. Strangely, this is good scant
hours after roasting and I would have expected otherwise since the Yemen can
be quite sharp and the Sumatra is roasted fairly lightly in this blend. But
fabulous! Rules are made to be broken I guess...
Ted
<Snip>
snip
<Snip>

3) From: miketom
---- Begin Original Message ----
From: Kathleen Tinkel 
Sent: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 21:31:54 -0400
To: "INTERNET:homeroast" 
Subject: + About out-gassing...
I'm trying to figure out how long freshly roasted beans need to out-
gas -
at what point does their interaction with the dread oxygen begin to 
cause
staling?
Somewhere - was it here? - someone suggested that this is a matter of 
taste
- that some odd critters seem to prefer 'old' coffee... I think I'm 
one of
those, for many (though not all) beans. 
Right this minute (9 p.m.), I'm drinking some Golden Pwani Sumatran 
(almost
Full City) that I roasted at 11 a.m., and it's sublime. But that's 
unusual.
(This is a fabulous, full-bodied coffee that Tom just got - I do 
recommend
it if that's the style you like.) 
The Harrar 'Horse' I roasted on Tuesday at noon (City plus, I'd call 
it)
didn't seem to come into its own until Thursday morning (on Wednesday 
it
had a roughness that reminded me of the tannin in young wines; that 
had
vaporized by Thursday).
A batch of La Minita (roasted medium, before 2nd crack) wasn't really
interesting until 48 hours after roasting. 
All of these were ground in a Solis 166 at the midpoint, dripped 
through
paper, and drunk black...
Any thoughts?
Kathleen
---- End Original Message ----
While quite new at this, already  figured out that the beans I do 
need to sit at least until the next day to taste good.  And the 
Harrar, as you noted, takes even longer.  Incidentally, its a 
little "winey" for me, and I find it best in a blend.  I envy you the 
ability to drink a cup at 9pm; I would be up all night ;-(  Does 
anyone have any recommendations for decaf that is drinkable?
Mike

4) From: Robert Cantor
Here the time to peak of flavor seems to vary with roasting method.  The
faster I roast, the longer it needs to rest.  To me there's a difference
between evolution of flavor and staling.  The flavor can evolve for weeks
and the coffee may still be good.  Staling happens fastest here when
humidity is high, giving water at least as important a role as oxygen.  I've
never had staling faster than 6 weeks with a popper roast but they uniformly
take at least 36 hours to develop flavors and 3-5 days to mellow.  None of
my alp roasts have been around long enough to stale.  The 45 min oven roast
was at it's peak as soon as it was cool, but was stale in 3 days.
Bob C.
rcantor

5) From: Kathleen Tinkel
Ted - 
Thanks for your comments. 
You mention temperature, which I never know as I can't figure out how to
mount any sort of thermometer in the Alp (the manufacturer probably could
measure chamber temp some way - have to ask them to consider it for a
future model). Anyway, I don't know the temp - alas, as it would be useful
information.
I have some week-old Mocha Ismaili here - maybe I'll try your 2/3 Pwani 1/3
mocha blend (sort of) to see how it drinks. Thanks.
Kathleen

6) From: Ken Mary
In my experience, coffee is nearly always "better" after 24 to 48 hours of
resting while exposed to air. "Better" in many cases really means that I was
looking for a certain chocolatey syrupy quality or a particularly long
lasting aftertaste. I have never had a bad cup of my homeroasted coffee at
any degree of aging from a few minutes to 2 weeks. There have been some
disappointingly weak cups that improved greatly after 2 or 3 days, but even
those were enjoyable.
Yes it a matter of taste, and there are no rules that demand a certain aging
before coffee is drinkable or a time limit after which a roast immediately
becomes rubbish. I also remember an opinion that some people had become so
adapted to bad stale coffee that they permit their homeroast to age even up
to a few days. The message is likely archived in Deja but I am not going to
waste my time looking for it.
And if you still want to drip through paper, I will try to be tolerant.  8^)
--
Ken Mary - Aromaroast - whirlyblade - decanter
----------
<Snip>
<Snip>

7) From: Kathleen Tinkel
Mike:
Although Ukers - author of the famous 1935 tome All About Coffee - goes
into great detail on the amount and type of gases (and oils) in roasted
coffee, how much is emitted daily and so on, all charted and graphed, he
doesn't relate any of these data to flavor in the cup. Pity...
In Home Coffee Roasting, Kenneth Davids cites "anywhere from four hours to
a day" and says that just-roasted coffee "may display somewhat less body
and acidity" than rested (though I'd say the acidity usually comes through
loud and clear, accompanied by something rough or tannic).
In Espresso: Ultimate Coffee, he says simply to let it rest for 24 hours.
Most other books are silent on this topic.
* * *
Sometimes Harrar is too winey for me, too - roasting to second crack tames
it, however, without making it obnoxiously charry.
I think the ability to drink coffee at night is genetic or something - it
doesn't seem to bother me or my husband, amazingly. 
Kathleen
---------------

8) From: Kathleen Tinkel
Bob:
Interesting. I've only been keeping track while roasting with FreshRoast
(6-minute roasts, more or less) and the Alp (17-minute). Not sure I've seen
your pattern, but now I'll be thinking about it.
Nor have I ever had coffee more than a couple of weeks old without at least
some perceptible traces of staling. In fact, I think I detect it within a
week.
The term Kenneth Davids uses for coffee flavor after resting is
'stabilized' - but I'm not sure it ever is quite stable in my experience. I
usually drink coffee each morning, and since starting to roast all my
coffee, have been noticing a change with every pot. Of course, half a pound
doesn't last all that long, so perhaps it would become stable - for some
period between resting and staling - if I kept it a while. Or maybe it's
never stable...
Kathleen
-----------

9) From: Steven Dover

10) From: Kathleen Tinkel
Steve:
Very interesting. I'm beginning to think each and every one of us (me
included) lives by cherished coffee 'rules' that are at least partly
folkloric - or at the very least tailored to a particular set of
circumstances. 
But I have been casual about the freshly roasted beans, and think I'll try
your method - pack them up as soon as they're cool - to see how it goes.
You don't seem to concern yourself with light, just air, right? 
Don't understand what you mean by this passage:
<Snip>
What sort of 'fruit jars' do you use? I don't have any that would allow me
to use more than a single lid, but I'm probably misunderstanding what it is
you're doing...
Kathleen

11) From: Anthony Ottman
Folklore provides a place to start, but testing is what gives each of us the
"answer."  Fortunately, with what we're doing, testing is easy and
inexpensive.
In our house, we prefer coffee that is sealed immediately in jars after
cooling and rested for 24 hours.  In back-to-back comparisons, sealing right
away preserves more flavor and seems to delay staling.  YMMV.
Protecting roasted beans from light is another part of the conventional
wisdom, but I haven't tried that one yet.
- Anthony O.

12) From: Gary Zimmerman
 
<Snip>
And even then, the "answers" tend to be personal and fairly subjective, 
because that's what tastes are.  I expect there are some folks for whom the 
cat pee tang of stale espresso is what makes it "authentic," because that's 
what they've always had.  Outgassing and ageing of roasted coffee is, I 
believe, a staling continuum.  Initially magic happens, then bad 
things.  The point at which one turns to the other is up to you, and 
different for different coffees and different roasts and different brewing 
techniques.
Frustrating, isn't it, all these variables?  Or exciting.
You choose that too.  ;-)
-- garyZ
Whirly-drip(paper)-black
        & vacuum

13) From: Michael Rochman
Agree with you guys. Have found that putting freshly cooled beans 
into mason jar works best for us...and I ~love~ the woosh it 
provides when you open the jar a day or so later for that first pot.
Light? I ~think~ we taste a difference. Not sure. Haven't A-B tested 
yet and probably won't because we keep the mason jars in a 
kitchen cabined.
Anyone here play around with testing for light staling?
Mike
On 11 Sep 2000, at 7:09, Anthony Ottman wrote:
<Snip>

14) From: kenparker
Kathleen:
I have an Alp with a temperature gauge. I purchased the thermometer from
a lab supply. Here's the info:
www.labsafety.com
http://www.labsafety.com/commerce/product.asp?dept%5Fid†75&pf%5Fid00
Product number 10606C
The thermometer has a 12 inch stem. I drilled a 5/32 inch hole, in the drum end, through the black plastic cover and the inside metal liner. I tried to drill the hole on the axis of the drum as closely as I could eyeball it.  Before turning on the roaster, simply shove the thermometer into the hole until it's about an inch or two from the end of the drum. (It's almost fully inserted at this point.) Now just push the start button and roast normally. Of course, the temperature profile is of the heat in the drum, not the beans. But it gives one a good reference for future roasts. I usually start logging temperatures in 30 second increments starting at about 10 minutes into the roast. This addition has been a great help in attaining consistent roasts with the Alp.
Oh yeah.....remember to pull the thermometer out before trying to open the lid!!
If you aren't too worried about warranty implications, I strongly recommend this modification.
Good luck.
Ken Parker
--------------------------------------------------------
At 11:12 AM 9/10/2000 -0400, you wrote:
You mention temperature, which I never know as I can't figure out how to
mount any sort of thermometer in the Alp (the manufacturer probably could
measure chamber temp some way - have to ask them to consider it for a
future model). Anyway, I don't know the temp - alas, as it would be useful
information.
Kathleen 

15) From: coffenut
 
  
 
 
  0
  DocumentEmail
  
  
   
   
  
  
 
<!--
 /* Font Definitions */
@font-face
	{font-family:Tahoma;
	panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;
	mso-font-charset:0;
	mso-generic-font-family:swiss;
	mso-font-pitch:variable;
	mso-font-signature:16792199 0 0 0 65791 0;}
 /* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
	{mso-style-parent:"";
	margin:0in;
	margin-bottom:.0001pt;
	mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
	font-size:12.0pt;
	font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
	{color:blue;
	text-decoration:underline;
	text-underline:single;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
	{color:blue;
	text-decoration:underline;
	text-underline:single;}
p.MsoAutoSig, li.MsoAutoSig, div.MsoAutoSig
	{margin:0in;
	margin-bottom:.0001pt;
	mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
	font-size:12.0pt;
	font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";}
span.EmailStyle17
	{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
	mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
	mso-ascii-font-family:Arial;
	mso-hansi-font-family:Arial;
	mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;
	color:navy;}
@page Section1
	{size:8.5in 11.0in;
	margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;
	mso-header-margin:.5in;
	mso-footer-margin:.5in;
	mso-paper-source:0;}
div.Section1
	{page:Section1;}
-->

Ken,

 

Lately, I’ve been thinking about this subject too.  I have another idea/approach that may not require violating the warranty, but don’t know enough about the thermometer products out there.  Since the bean cup sits just outside the drum on the Alp, a small thermometer probe that could clip onto the lip of the bean cup and extend horizontally into the drum might work.  I’m thinking if there was a digital thermometer with a remote probe that could be clipped to the bean cup, you could run the small probe wires externally under the lid, and monitor the temp from an external digital device.

 

I was in Sears the other day and saw that they have some hand held monitors for sensing temperatures (for automotive use).  The device had to be pretty close to be able to sense something as small as a bean (like within an inch or so).  The farther back you get from the object being monitored, the wider the field that the device is sensing.  If there were a way to focus a device like this into the roasting chamber, maybe it would be possible to measure the actual bean temps as they are tumbling.

 

Coffenut  :^)

 

-----Original Message----- From: owner-homeroast [mailto:owner-homeroast]On Behalf Of Kenneth R. Parker Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 9:53 AM To: homeroast Subject: RE: + About out-gassing...

 

Kathleen: I have an Alp with a temperature gauge. I purchased the thermometer from a lab supply. Here's the info: www.labsafety.com http://www.labsafety.com/commerce/product.asp?dept%5Fid†75&pf%5Fid00 Product number 10606C The thermometer has a 12 inch stem. I drilled a 5/32 inch hole, in the drum end, through the black plastic cover and the inside metal liner. I tried to drill the hole on the axis of the drum as closely as I could eyeball it.  Before turning on the roaster, simply shove the thermometer into the hole until it's about an inch or two from the end of the drum. (It's almost fully inserted at this point.) Now just push the start button and roast normally. Of course, the temperature profile is of the heat in the drum, not the beans. But it gives one a good reference for future roasts. I usually start logging temperatures in 30 second increments starting at about 10 minutes into the roast. This addition has been a great help in attaining consistent roasts with the Alp. Oh yeah.....remember to pull the thermometer out before trying to open the lid!! If you aren't too worried about warranty implications, I strongly recommend this modification. Good luck. Ken Parker -------------------------------------------------------- At 11:12 AM 9/10/2000 -0400, you wrote:

You mention temperature, which I never know as I can't figure out how to mount any sort of thermometer in the Alp (the manufacturer probably could measure chamber temp some way - have to ask them to consider it for a future model). Anyway, I don't know the temp - alas, as it would be useful information. Kathleen


16) From: Kathleen Tinkel
Thanks - I love that idea. I just went to the site and tried to buy the
thermometer (which is evidently on sale).
Very interesting.
Kathleen
--------

17) From: Kathleen Tinkel
Coffeenut:
<Snip>
Another great idea - and I actually own such a thermometer, meant for meat
in the oven. The probe is bent into an L and about 6-1/2 inches on the long
side. (The 2-inch stub could probably be affixed to the bean tub by means
of a clip - not sure how, though, without interfering with the dumping
process - have to work on that.
The wire is about a meter long, and it plugs into an external readout with
several different controls: you can set a target temp and have the timer
beep when it is reached, for example.
Unfortunately, it is limited to 392° F - just shy of what's needed for
coffee roasting. But I wonder if the same company might not make a similar
device with different specs. Company is Polder. The meat thermometer costs
$25 to $30.
KT

18) From: Prabhakar Ragde
<Snip>
I have a Polder -- it's my impression it works for contact with liquid
or solid, I don't know how accurate it would be measuring air. Also,
it's not the tip, I think it's the little ring partway up the shaft at
which point the temperature is measured. --PR

19) From: Michael Rochman
Have been using Polders for over a year with offset smoking of 
meats. I stick the probe through a potato or onion and place it near 
the meat on the same grid. It gives me the temp inside the smoker. 
So, yet, it will measure air temp. The measuring part is only at the 
tip of the probe.   Regards, Mike
<Snip>

20) From: Joseph A. Feliciani
Hi all,
I don't own an Alp, I use a WBP II.  The other day at the office, we had
some air conditioning repair done, and the tech used a laser thermometer.
He just pointed it at the vents, and it instantly read the temperature of
the air leaving or entering them, from 10 feet away.  Sounds perfect for the
Alp.  Open the door, point it at the beans, read the surface temperature,
and close the door.  I have no idea how much it would be, but it seems like
it would solve the problem!  If I get a chance, I'll call him and find out
the details.
Joe
WBPII - Bodum Antigua - *$ Proteo Barista - (espresso only)

21) From: Jeffrey A. Olawski
Hi,
Figure anywhere from $100 to $1,000 + for an IR non-contact thermometer.
You could try www.techni-tool.com to see if their catalogue is online.
Jeff

22) From: Joseph A. Feliciani
Here's an update.  The thermometer I was speaking about is an infrared
thermometer with a laser sight to pinpoint where or what you are taking a
reading from.  Click below to see a sample:http://www.thomasregister.com/olc/tif/eleven.htmNo prices are listed.
Joe
WBPII - Bodum Antigua - *$ Proteo Barista - (espresso only)

23) From: Joseph A. Feliciani
I posted to soon.  Following are some sites with prices:http://www.sooperspecial.com/april/pg5.htmhttp://www.ntxtools.com/tf7800.htm
Hope this helps!
Joe
WBPII - Bodum Antigua - *$ Proteo Barista - (espresso only)

24) From: cationic
Yes, someone else pointed out here (a while ago) that the ring halfway up
the shaft is what secures the sensing element inside the shaft. Measuring is
done at the tip.
Regards,
Rafael

25) From: Karen Nakamura
Radioshack sells the same thermometer, often on sale. I have one, but the 
probe broke. Yes, it's a shame it only reports to 392F
I've been looking for a good digital thermoprobe that goes up to 500 for my 
HWP. :(
Tom, any luck finding one and putting it in your catalogue?
KN
<Snip>

26) From: Karen Nakamura
 
Well, the good news is that the temperature range is good, but I'm going to 
guess it's incredible expensive. But they're now mass-marketting infant 
thermometers with IR technology (the stick in ear type), so perhaps in the 
future they'll drop to the same $50 range.
Doesn't Casio have a watch with a builtin IR thermoprobe? I saw it in a 
catalogue. But my guess is that it's most probably calibrated to -30F-150F 
or some other "human" range. I wanted to get one for skiing, to know the 
temp of the snow (for waxing).
KN
*	Temperature Range:	TIF7700 and TIF7800;
0$B!#(B to 600$B!#(BF (-18$B!#(B to 315$B!#(BC)
TIF7900; -67$B!#(B to 300$B!#(BF
(-51$B!#(B to 149$B!#(BC)
*	Resolution:	1$B!#(B F (1$B!#(B C)
*	Accuracy:	$B%"(B 2% of reading, +1 digit; or 3$B!#(BF/2$B!#(BC (whichever is 
greater)
*	Target Size/Field of View:	3:1 Optics ratio
with a minimum 1" (2.5cm) target
*	Repeatability:	$B%"(B0.5% of reading, plus one digit
*	Power Supply:	9VDC; 1 "9V" cell alkaline battery
*	Wavelength:	8 to 14 microns
*	Emissivity:	Fixed at 0.95
*	Operating Temp:	50$B!#(B to 125$B!#(BF (10$B!#(B to 52$B!#(BC)
*	Battery Life:	Approx. 40 hrs.
*	Response Time:	Instantaneous
*	Unit Weight:	2.7 oz. (75 grams)
*	Unit Dimensions:	7.26" x 1.7" x .75" (18.44cm x 4.3cm x 1.9cm)
At 10:46 PM -0700 2000/9/12, Joseph A. Feliciani wrote:
<Snip>

27) From: Jeff Wikstrom
I believe it's about a $300.00 unit.


HomeRoast Digest