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Topic: Get a horse (43 msgs / 871 lines)
1) From: R.N.Kyle
 I've been wanting to try one, and as it turned out SwisMar is out of =
alpenrost roasters, and doesn't expect any until Spring. When the =
weather breaks I will be trying some Wok roasting outdoors.
Ron Kyle
Anderson SC

2) From: Kai-La-Sha
As kids we used to shout out the car window at vehicles disabled at the side of the road....."Get a horse!"   Ron, get a wok!  Works right out of the box - every time!  Never breaks down.  Easy cleanup.
In answer to the person who burns coffee in a mokha pot, ... I don't see how you can do that.  The pot is designed to control almost all the variables, - so long as you keep the heat at the lowest setting which will send the coffee north, and keep the grind large enough to avoid a muddy cup.  I now use it as my principal
method for morning coffee - less to go wrong when I am only half awake!  Flavor comparable to French Press, only richer.  Pot is also very small and durable - perfect for travel.
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3) From: Ben Treichel
Kai-La-Sha wrote:
More like vac pot, but more concentrated?

4) From: jim gundlach
    Not everyone is lucky enough to have kitchen facilities that can 
handle the smoke produced by wok roasting.  But, a propane burner for a 
turkey fryer and a good size wok can move the whole thing outside.  It 
can roast 2 1/2 pounds in fifteen or so minutes and match drum roasting 
profiles quite well.
    On the mokha pot, when I talk about burning coffee I don't literally 
mean burn the coffee.  When water hotter than 205F is used to brew 
coffee, there are some distinct and unpleasant flavors added to the 
final drink.  I did not know the difference and used a mokha pot for 
over fifteen years before I had a good shot from a pump driven espresso 
machine.  Even after I had pump driven espresso machines I would use 
the mokha pot for travel and I found that at an elevation of about 
7,000 feet, I can make good "unburned" espresso with the mokha pot.  
But down here at 225 feet, I can never make it without the burned 
taste.  Anymore when I travel I use a modified cowboy coffee with a 
filter for a thermos to replicate the vacuum pot brewing process with 
quite good results.  If your French press coffee tastes much like the 
mokha pot coffee, I would guess you are brewing in the FP with water 
that is hotter than 205F.
    Jim Gundlach
On Tuesday, January 28, 2003, at 07:45 AM, Kai-La-Sha wrote:
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5) From: Dave Huddle
For some of us, moving outside isn't an option either.  
It was  7 BELOW ZERO yesterday!  And my kitchen can't handle the smoke.
I've been roasting (alp) in a closed garage (temp around 30~40 F) lately.
Dave	Westerville OH   
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6) From: Victor Blackwell
On the FP, I pour in boiling hot water, then wait 30 seconds, then add
coffee grounds.  Proceed from there.  No oil or acid taste.
I checked this all out with instante thermometer and wait till temp of water
dropped to 199 D.
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7) From: steve_w
I haven't set off the smoke detector yet using my Whirley-pop.  I don't
have an outside vented stove, I do get a lot of roast smell out of it
but somehow most of the smoke stays inside until I dump the beans into 
the vacuum cooler.  
Steve Wall
Quoting Dave Huddle :
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8) From: Ben Treichel
I'm north of detroit and I have a solution. Costs a few bucks, but works 
nice. I''ll post pic's as soon as I can set up a page (within the next 
Dave Huddle wrote:

9) From: John Abbott
Dave, Thanks for the smile!  I've been grumbling about the 64 degrees
here in Mission TX, on a day when it is supposed to get to 75!  I feel
better now!
I have roasted outside with the Fresh Roasts but not the HotTop. The HT
sits on top of the stove and the exhaust fan easily keeps up with it.
Besides all that - roasting smoke is a great smell!
John - 1500 yards from Mexico
On Tue, 2003-01-28 at 10:50, Dave Huddle wrote:
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10) From: floyd burton
Just getting into gas grill drum roasting but the amount of smoke astounds
me-really reeks-can't wait to move out of the garage.  Also must wash
everything I wear and myself after roasting-not as bad as cigarette smoke
but it is pretty bad.  Wouldn't want to roast beans full time with a gas
grill.  Can't imagine how people who really react to the smoke from a HWP
would do around my drum roaster-call the fire brigade.
Just tasted some Sum Mahn this morning that I roasted a couple of days
ago-first time I actually like the stuff-very different when roasted with a
drum.  Am not giving any away till I make certain it won't cause any of my
friend's tongues to go on strike.

11) From: Dave Huddle
Great to see you back on the list!  We all missed you.
In case you missed the news during your absence, THE Ohio State
University won the Fiesta Bowl on Jan. 3rd.
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12) From: John Abbott
Thanks - good to be home!
I guess this was the year for the Bucs and Buckeyes! I expect a little
more respect for both next year. The Huston Texans have taught us
humility again down here in TX.
After my month+ away from my coffee I'm really dedicated to getting a
portable coffee shop created.  Now the problem will be which beans to
take :O)
On Tue, 2003-01-28 at 11:20, Dave Huddle wrote:
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13) From: Oaxaca Charlie
--- Kai-La-Sha  wrote:
 Come on, Cathy, I bet you still do that.
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14) From: Dave Huddle
Sorta strange that they picked "Texans" as the team name.
The DALLAS TEXANS (AFL) moved to KC in 63 and became the Chiefs.
Bucs team had a couple of Buckeyes too, Tom Tupa and Rickey Duddley.
COFFEE - When we traveled last summer, one small suitcase held a FR, 4
cup auto drip brewer, Zass. knee grinder, couple of mugs, Brita filter,
etc. and enough Ethiopian Harrar green to last us through the trip.
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15) From: John Abbott
Great idea generator this! I have a contact in Mexico that will build
the foam rubber mold (a la camera cases) for the inside of a case. I
have a metal case that should endure the treatment of baggage handlers.
So I'm thinking: Fresh Roast+, French Press; Britta; whirly blade; Green
storage bag, zip lock storage bags - and a couple of mugs.  That might
Did I forget something?
John - just noticed all my posts from yesterday arriving - Slammer??
On Tue, 2003-01-28 at 11:53, Dave Huddle wrote:
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16) From: Dave Huddle
I'd add an electric extension cord, and some dish detergent.
I like the foam rubber mold idea.
I usually roasted in the hotel bathroom with the vent running to
minimize the smoke/odor.
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17) From: John Abbott
OK - now I'm impressed!  You of course are correct on both counts. I've
tried cleaning with a washcloth and face soap - doesn't really work. 
I'll add a square for the soap and another for the extension cord.  I
wonder if they make a SMALL Britta - mine would consume half the case.
On Tue, 2003-01-28 at 12:26, Dave Huddle wrote:
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18) From: Oaxaca Charlie
 John, when I flew to Mexico I had packed in my suitcase a FR, a
french press, wirleybalde grinder and various vac. sealed greens
(for sharing) and I really feared what that all would look like
on the airport security x-ray machine. People ahead of and
behind me had to open their suitcases but I guess the FR doesn't
look like a bomb. Good to know. You only forgot the solis.;o)
--- John Abbott  wrote:
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19) From: Rich Adams
A Zass to replace the whirl blade.

20) From: Dave Huddle
I don't see anything in your list for heating the water.  DON'T forget
I have a plastic Brita "Fill & Go" - looks like a "sports water
bottle".  Seals tightly.  Filter is good for 57 liters/15 gallons/2~3
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21) From: John Abbott
Charlie, as you know taking any kind of weapon into Mexico is a BIG
no-no. So if they didn't react to it - nobody will. I said last April
that I was going to create this little case - and now after being hung
out without coffee for over a month, I will make it a very high
About the Solis - Way far to big and too fragile - but I really had
thought about one of those stove-top Espresso pots that you see in all
the import stores.  The French Press will keep me in real coffee and
I'll just have to live without my 7 a.m. shot!
On Tue, 2003-01-28 at 13:10, Oaxaca Charlie wrote:
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22) From: John Abbott
Rich - I have a Zass, but the French Press doesn't care all that much
about the grind.  However - in reading through this I realized I hadn't
included anything to heat the water :O)
On Tue, 2003-01-28 at 13:10, Rich Adams wrote:
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23) From: Rich Adams

24) From: John Abbott
My problem is that I have the BIG Zass (covered hoper) and it just wouldn't
do - don't want to own yet another grinder (would  be number 5) for
occasional travel.  I'm trying to control my coffee cravings on the road.
Around here the grinder matters but as checked baggage. . OK maybe.

25) From: Kai-La-Sha
Jim, I use both, plus the yama, and I don't taste the "burnt" thing at all.  Perhaps the mechanics of the mokha pot I use are different from yours. Also the coffee I use in the MP is a light full city Indonesian or Yemen - no roasty flavors to begin with - maybe that has something to do with it.
The principle is similar in the vac pot as the mokha pot.  Vapor pressure from the near-boiling water forces the liquid to travel from the base reservoir to the upper vessel.  In the case of the mokha pot the water contacts the coffee in a confined puck as it travels north, whereas in the vac pot it meets the coffee in a
looser open vessel.  In the mokha pot, once the water has gone through the coffee puck, the coffee is finished, whereas in the vac pot, steam from the bottom vessel continues to agitate the coffee until steeping is finished, (also maintaining a high temperature) and as soon as the positive pressure in the lower vessel is no
longer maintained (steam pressure) the resulting vacuum sucks the fluid down.
I don't think there could be much difference in the extraction temperature between the two methods, and I find the results indistinguishable.  But perhaps I am not as sensitive to a "burnt" taste as you are.  I will have to get a good thermometer and see if there is any temperature differential.
I have a dinky little Krups Gusto for espresso from which I get quite variable results - sometimes great, sometimes not.  I think if I had a better grinder (I have a year old Solis) I would get more reproducible results.  I do like the Mokha pot for reproducibility.  It seems to depend less on the grind than either the
espresso machine or the Yama.  And as I said, the flavor is smooth, rich, and has neither bitterness nor acidity.
As far as the smoke with a wok goes, I don't find it is much of a problem.  I have a very ordinary hood over my cooktop.  If I open the kitchen window a crack, and "crank" the hood fan, The smoke is pretty well drawn out.  I also usually stop the roast before 2nd crack gets going, so there is not much smoke to begin with.  I
guess if I were fond of dark roasts, it would be a different story!
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26) From: Rich Adams
Understood John.
I got the same Zass, as well as two others, but neither are small enough for
the Cruiser, so, the Turkish mill model is next on my list.

27) From: Brian Yarvin
Hi Everybody:
It's Brian, the Moka pot guy again. 
In my experience it's VERY easy to burn (or scorch?) coffee in one 
of these pots. All you have to do is leave it on the heat too long.
I have never seen burnt coffee come out of the top spout but heat 
conducted through the pot will certainly burn any coffee that's left in 
too long.
The worst case? I've even seen the finished coffee come to a boil. 
This results in a fluid so noxious that even my wife won't drink it.
Brian Yarvin
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28) From: Ed Needham
I've always tried to pull the moka pot from the heat and pour just before the
steam spews through the grounds.  It seems to make a much better brew for my
tastes.  It can be a little awkward if it steams through while pouring out
the coffee, but if you time it just right, and don't heat it too fast, it
Ed Needham
To Absurdity and Beyond!http://www.homeroaster.comed

29) From: Tom & Maria
Sounds like a good method. I worry most about water temperature 
falling too low with a French Press. I do put the grounds in first 
always, but I basically use water that is 205 on the nose,  because I 
think the heat loss pouring into a room temperature press/grounds is 
instantaneous. I measured 200 immediately after the pour. The bad 
tastes of low water temperature are much worse than too hot (205 
degrees or above sustained over time). I really think you would have 
to have the water-coffee on a heat source to get that water-too-hot 
result. I also never use any pre-wetting method (Chemex calls it 
"blooming the grounds") because I noticed that water-too-cold 
dullness in the cup when I experimented with it. I think if you 
preheat your press or other coffee brewing apparatus, then you need 
to be more aware of high water temperatures.
                   "Great coffee comes from tiny roasters"
            Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting  -  Tom & Maria
		1455 64th Street Emeryville CA 94608
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30) From: Rick Farris
Dave wrote:
Which reminds me of something from my Navy days long ago.  If you run the
hot water in the shower at the same time, the humidity somehow or other
latches onto all the smoke particles and carries them away.
-- Rick
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31) From: John Abbott
I always thought that's where Navy coffee came from :O)

32) From: Victor Blackwell
We are both brewing at the same temp.  If you are pouring 205 D. water and
it instantly drops from there.  I am putting in 212 D. water and waiting.
But in a week I will be heating only enough water to fill the FR so I can do
your method.  I am going to see if I can detect any taste change.   The body
of water I have at boiling would take to long to cool to 205 D.  with my
current method.   How much water do you boil?   I am doing about a quart and
a half.  That much water is a pain to heat up.
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33) From: Steven Van Dyke
The cheap way to get a custom fitted foam case involves a trash bag and a
can of foam insulation - put the trash bag / sheet of plastic between your
gear and the case, mold it up around the gear as best you can, then start
blowing foam into the case.  Fit things around as it goes and you wind up
with a nicely fitted gear case.
The absolute best way is to put the gear on a flat surface, cover it with
the plastic with the plastic tucked down to give the 'holes' you want, cover
it with the case, then inject the foam from the back.
You might want to do a couple of test with nicely disposable cardboard boxes
Steve :->
http://www.svandyke.com<- my simple home page
http://www.cafeshops.com/stevespics<- my little store of Impressionist &
Special Events Photography stuff)

34) From: Steve Wall
On Tuesday, January 28, 2003, at 05:17 PM, Brian Yarvin wrote:
Was this an aluminum Mokha pot?  This might be a good argument for
a stainless steel Mokha pot.  Aluminum is a good conductor, stainless
steel is not.  It'd probably take a lot more effort to burn the puck
in a st. steel pot.
Steve Wall
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35) From: AlChemist John
Sometime around 10:15 1/28/2003, John Abbott typed:
Measuring device of some sort, cup or scale?
John Nanci 
AlChemist at large
Roasting and Blending by Gestalt
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36) From: Ben Treichel
Kai-La-Sha wrote:
I'm using my Zass to grind, and as long as you set your marks on the 
zass, and use it at that point, I get consistant results from my Gusto.

37) From: John Abbott
John, good thought. The FR+ has a fill line that has worked well for me
(about 90g) but I might put a scoop in the baggie section for the dosing.

38) From: David Westebbe
  The bad
Can you describe this "bad taste of too low water temperature"?  I always
just thought of the coffee as somewhat weaker when the water is not hot
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39) From: John Abbott
Dave, I know this was directed to Tom, but the bad taste that I get is a
flat taste.  Depending on how cold - it can taste like soap or the pot it
came from.

40) From: David Westebbe
Interesting.  I made coffee for years using water from a Bunn commercial
coffeemaker's spigot.  I always thought it was likely not quite hot enough.
I used a mug-top drip maker.
I used more coffee (two heaping scoops (4 tablespoons +)) for a regular 10
ounce mug.  It was always good, and sometimes great.
Maybe the water was in the ballpark and I just didn't realize it?  I dunno.
I just assumed that more coffee would make up for the lesser extraction.
What we really need is a chemical analysis of brewing at different
temperatures.  the accepted range is 195 - 205, but it would be very helpful
to know what is soluble at what temperatures.  I imagine that some bitter
stuff needs higher temps to dissolve, and that is why we avoid boiling
water, while some good stuff dissolves less completely if the water is too
cool.  If we knew the specifics, we could tailor our water temp to our
taste, and have more predictability.
I find it noteworthy that Schomer tailors his water temp to within a very
tight range to get his desired taste profile.  Maybe all of us could/would
do something similar if we knew what we were doing?  Press pots and pourover
are likely candidates, while Prided 'spresso machines already do it.
And what about the cold-water concentrate extraction method?  I've never
heard that it makes "flat" tasting coffee, and some claim it makes better
coffee than many hot water methods.
I'd really like to know more about this subject.
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41) From: David Westebbe
Make that PIDed 'spresso machines...
Damn you Bill Gates and your automatic spell-checker!
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42) From: Lowe, David
Of course there is always the simple approach: try the exact same =
coffee, grind, etc. at a variety of brewing temperatures and see what =
you think of each. No chemical analysis! Of course it would be =
interesting to know the specifics.
Dave Lowe

43) From: Angelo
I find that if you kill the heat before the brew starts bubbling, the 
residual heat will get the rest of the brew done before any "steam" goes 
through the coffee...
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