OK, why can I get a better shot form Starbucks than I can at home? This has bugged me for a long time. Mine are bitter and Starbucks shots are not. I have tried using Starbucks espresso blend (same as they use) ground by them and I still get a similarly bitter shot at home. Equipment is an Estro Vapore. I allow it to warm up with the portafilter attached. I have tried tamping and not tamping. It always comes out bitter. Not awful, but more bitter than I like. The people at Starbucks say that the water is the key and that they filter it eight times. Hmmmm.... so I went out and bought a Brita pitcher filter. I think it made a difference but not much. Any other suggestions? Paul Paul Goelz Rochester Hills MI USA pgoelzhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast">http://www.pgoelz.comhomeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
Paul, It doesn't make sense does it? Any home barista ought to be able to match, if not exceed, Starbucks quality. Three things that I know make for bitter espresso, RO water, over extraction, water too hot. Dan <Snip> not. <Snip> homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
Hi Paul - long time between posts! You might look at water temperature. If your water isn't up to standard you will get some brackish espresso. When I went from my steam toy to the La Pavoni I couldn't believe the difference in quality. Time to pull the shot will also have a bearing on the outcome. John - who is now too lazy for the LP and just pushes buttons |
Quoting Paul Goelz : <Snip> Try a few shots with some completely different (eg. bottled) water. Try pulling your cup out from under the portafilter after 25 seconds and see if that cup tastes good. Try running the machine with a styrofoam cup in place of the portafilter and measure the temperature of the water in the cup (should be 197-203 F). Steve Wall homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
<Snip> extraction, water too hot. Dan Also a dirty group head. BTW why does RO water cause bitter espresso? I've never noticed this, and my domestic drinking supply has an RO unit after the softener. Phil Jordan |
I had some friend up here a couple of weeks ago who were blown away by my shots, so much so that they had four each and remarked when they left for Hood River that mune far surpassed Starbucks in Santa Monica! yes!! ginny |
<Snip> my <Snip> Because it can be acidic. RO water makes for a very bitter cup of tea, just try it. I treat the RO water with calcite to neutralize the acid and add some hardness for flavor. Helps a lot. Dan homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
At 10:59 AM 3/4/03, you wrote: <Snip> I normally do the steamed milk with the portafilter loaded and in place. Then I do the espresso. It may be that the water is too hot for a while... but I think I have tried it both ways. I'll try again. I hate Starbucks coffee but I actually like their espresso. Paul Paul Goelz Rochester Hills MI USA pgoelzhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast">http://www.pgoelz.comhomeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
At 11:22 AM 3/4/03, you wrote: <Snip> The machine should be fairly clean. I ran a tankful of Urnex and two rinse tanks through it and was shocked at the gunk that came out. Didn't change the bitterness though...... Paul Paul Goelz Rochester Hills MI USA pgoelzhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast">http://www.pgoelz.comhomeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
At 11:18 AM 3/4/03, you wrote: <Snip> Good idea. <Snip> Good idea again. I have a good thermocouple meter. Paul Paul Goelz Rochester Hills MI USA pgoelzhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast">http://www.pgoelz.comhomeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
At 11:08 AM 3/4/03, you wrote: <Snip> I'm still here and lurking. But I've been happy with my coffee lately (CRLM) and haven't had anything to say. But with winter, I started making cappucinos again and the espresso thing bugs me. I have a hard time controlling the time of the shot. Starbucks espresso grind is finer than I can do in my Solis and it still takes maybe 15 seconds for a double. I'll try tamping heavier next time and see if I can slow it down a bit. Refresh me.... is it 20 seconds for 1 oz or 2 oz? Paul Paul Goelz Rochester Hills MI USA pgoelzhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast">http://www.pgoelz.comhomeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
From: "Paul Goelz" Refresh me.... is it 20 seconds for 1 oz or 2 oz? Between 20&30 sec 1oz & 2oz using different PF and amount of grind of course. I target 26sec for mine, have digital timer sitting on top of Miss Silvia (SS timer of course). You NEED a decent grinder if you expect to get decent shots! PNW HomeRoast List Gathering Info' URLhttp://home.attbi.com/~mdmint/coffee/pnwhrg.htmMM;-) aka Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee Royally Balance Brewin' FrankenFormer Rosto Roastin' Rocky grindin' - Miss Silvia brewin' too! homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
<Snip> I've been using domestic RO treatment for 8 or 9 years. I buy very high quality teas as well as coffees. Bitterness is not an issue. Maybe my domestic RO treatment is not as efficient as that used for commercial RO water. I dunno - but certainly your assertion and my experience don't match. It's not that I disbelieve you - I just don't seem to experience what you say. I use Brita jugs when I'm working away from home and I don't recall the results being better either. Equally, (unfiltered water) + (tea or coffee) = Yukkk! I'm certainly interested to try the calcite experiment though, since my situation may be marginally improved by it. Where do you buy it? BTW, what is the source of the acidity? Phil. |
I believe, but I'm not sure, the RO acidity problem is related to the input water and its dissolved gases. Not all RO water is acidic. I know one person who's RO water was 7.2 Mine is 6.0 See if you can get a small amount to play with from Culligan or other water softener outlets. It isn't expensive, but you have to buy a large bag. Dan <Snip> match. <Snip> the <Snip> = <Snip> and <Snip> just <Snip> homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
I get a 17 second 1 or 2 ounce from the Solis Master, but I used to aim for as close to 20 seconds as I could with the La Pavoni. I tended to over tamp that beastie but it produced wonderful brew. |
RO water left exposed to the atmosphere will absorb carbon dioxide, and will become acidic. If it's never been exposed to the atmosphere, it won't have had time to acidify. =Spencer homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
Hmmm... Mine is acidic out of the RO tap. Is it possible that my well water has dissolved CO2 in it? Dan <Snip> homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
Paul, I would try grinding a little less fine and give it a nice even tamp. How is your grinder? I didn't know what a good shot was until I got a good burr grinder. The grinder is the key as well as the advice that Dan just gave. Les roasting and turning tampers in S. Oregon www.thortamper.com |
At 02:21 AM 3/5/03, you wrote: <Snip> I use the Solis sold by Starbucks. I have re-calibrated it to grind as fine as possible without the burrs hitting. But it still does not grind as fine as Starbucks does. I have tried using all sorts of tamps and grinds from drip to as fine as it goes, and they always turn out bitter. I used to thing it was my blend and/or roast level until I tried some of the stuff Starbucks uses. While I do like the Starbucks blend better than mine it is still bitter when I pull a shot. Paul Paul Goelz Rochester Hills, MI paul pgoelzhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast">http://www.pgoelz.comhomeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
Your grinder could well be the problem. If the burrs ever touched, you
could be producing a lot of dust. There has been considerable
discussion of how the Solis does not have a rigid enough frame to hold
the burrs close together without touching during grinding.
Jim Gundlach
On Wednesday, March 5, 2003, at 05:44 AM, Paul Goelz wrote:
<Snip>
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At 10:10 AM 3/5/03, you wrote: <Snip> Well, that doesn't apply here. I had Starbuck grind the beans and the grind looks pretty good. The only difference between what they brew and what they sold me was that it wasn't ground in the same grinder. I have to note that once in a very great while I get a good shot. It has been maybe six months since the last one, though. I used to use regular cinnamon to city roasted CRLM because I only have one good grinder and we drink a lot more coffee than I drink espresso. But I think that if I buy 1/4 pound of *$ espresso grind, I can go through it before it stales too badly. Paul Paul Goelz Rochester Hills MI USA pgoelzhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast">http://www.pgoelz.comhomeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
Paul: <Snip> <Snip> before it stales too badly. WOW ! ! ! You go straight home and drink a 1/4 pound of coffee ? ? ? You got a serious jones going there . . . Deward homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
<Snip> I'd agree. I was amazed to discover, once I replaced my Solis with a Mazzer Mini, that I no longer needed to add sugar to my espresso. If you can swing it, get a Rocky or better. If you can't, start putting money away now for a future purchase. You'll certainly notice a difference, and likely not need to replace your grinder any time in the near future, if ever. I'm quite confident my Mazzer will outlast me. Mark homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
Chris, and now they have your e-mail address as well! Had to comment - this really hit my funny bone! Thanks for the laughs. John - still chuckling |
a bit of "Guano del Burro" very funny Chris... gin most likely as well! homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
Speaking of grinders, if it hasn't been cleaned out lately, that'll make a difference. I keep a grinder at work, and blast it out with compressed air, followed by a quick scrub every other week, and it makes a really noticeable difference every time. John Kangas <Snip> The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast">http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmailhomeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
Hello Paul, One often overlooked area is to de-scale the machine. Minerals in the water build up in the machine over time and it can add to a bitter taste. Try cleaning it with non pulp lemon juice (as in fill the tank with a solution and run it through all parts of the machine) or buy a de-scaling solution. Also, and I know many will disagree, but I don't worry so much about the time of the shot. I look for the color and layers. Go for a good crema, mostly body and just a small dark heart on the bottom of the shot. I use a *$ barista (pretty much a Vapore) and get great tasting shots regularly. On 3/4/03 8:55 AM, "Paul Goelz" wrote: <Snip> homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |
At 12:47 PM 3/6/03, you wrote: <Snip> Any idea what proportions? Or what commercial de-scaling solution is recommended? I did run a tankful of Urnex through it but that is a detergent and not a de-scaler, right? <Snip> Sounds like we have the same machine. I bought mine from Starbucks back before they put the Starbucks name on it. Other than the shape of the portafilter handle, I think they are identical. There was a cool deep garnet red one I saw a month ago in our local Starbucks. Darn near bought it on the spot! My goodness, it was gorgeous! Paul Paul Goelz Rochester Hills MI USA pgoelzhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast">http://www.pgoelz.comhomeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast |