HomeRoast Digest


Topic: more profiling comparisons... (19 msgs / 574 lines)
1) From: Mike McGinness
The list has indeed been quiet, both from lack of posts and slow postings.
One I sent last night came through this morning... Yes the World is in
turmoil but the *roast* must go on!
I did two 151gr batches Kona Mountain this morning. One the *HJT* profile,
the other a modified version of my most recent Kona profile - call it
*BBMM2* (mapped it out this morning after re-reading the BB site a few more
times:-)
Both I used a 230 dehydration/stabilization stage of 1min to 230f then
held at 230 for 2 more min, 3min total. Roasting begins from 230 point per
BB's Jim Clark, which makes sense since below that point the temps are too
low to roast, and I'll go with it this discussion of times for now.
HJT (from 3min 230)
300 @ 1min
then 10 per min to 350 @ 6min
then 25 per min to 400 @ 8min
then 10 per min to 440f finish @12min
Cooling note: below 210 in first 1:30min cooling using 130v fan cooling,
then switched to 120v rest of cooling to *cool* Rosto.
BBMM2 (again from 3min 230)
40f per min:  270 @1min, 310 @2, 350f @3min
then 10f per min to finish @12min
360 @4min, 370 @5min ... 440 @12min
same cooling.
BBMM2 1st crack commenced about 400, HJT about 410... BBMM2 looked maybe a
hair more even, overall roast same color. Will cup tomorrow.
MM;-) aka Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
Royally Balance Brewin'
FrankenFormer Rosto Roastin'
Rocky grindin' - Miss Silvia brewin' too!
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2) From: Tom Gramila
Hi Mike,
	I am quite anxious to hear how this comparison goes!!  
Tom G.
On Fri, 21 Mar 
2003, Mike McGinness wrote:
<Snip>
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3) From: miKe mcKoffee
Picture of roasted beans and grinds side by side:http://home.attbi.com/~mdmint/coffee/hjt-bbmm.jpgUnfortunately was slightly out of focus. But the purpose was to show how
they compared to each other in color. Very very very closely the same.
The HJT was/is brighter tasting, BBMM slighter fuller. (exact profiles
previously posted.) I'm thinking the big difference may be the HJT 1st crack
@410 versus BBMM @400 both during 10f per min ramp to 440f 12min finish
(12min from 230 as you may or may not recall).
I'm going to repeat the profile comparison stopping both 30f and 3min after
1st crack starts during 10 development/finish ramp... Should mean my
profile will be stopped at 430 instead of 440 and HJT at 440 if goes as
before.
Currently drinking a cup of the photo grinds & beans mixed together. Quite a
good Americano!
MM;-)
FrankenFormer Rosto Roastin' - Royally Balance Brewin'
Rocky grindin' - Miss Silvia brewin' too!
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4) From: Jim Schulman
The HJT is about a minute faster after 400 than 
the BBMM, so a bit of extra brightness is to be 
expected. 
I'm doing it because I think the acidity is 
subdued while the origin flavor comes through. Am 
I imagining things or was that your impression 
too?
Jim
On 25 Mar 2003 at 17:19, miKe mcKoffee wrote:
<Snip>
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5) From: miKe mcKoffee

6) From: Jim Schulman
Ah, I see; you've added an extra minute compared to the profile I'm using.
Your Konas sound like a sensitive lot!
Jim

7) From: miKe mcKoffee
From: "Jim Schulman" 
<Snip>
Oops, I just re-read your earlier post(s)! You're taking it fast to 410° not
400° from 350° then 10° per to 440°... my mistake! Fine, back to ground zero
and a new set of profile comparisons... Really gives credence to Dietrich's
8hrs estimate to dial in a single green!
<Snip>
Sensitive beans or a refined Kona pallet who knows, both I suspect:-) What
I've considered slightly *off* target roasts get raves from others...
MM;-)
FrankenFormer Rosto Roastin' - Royally Balance Brewin'
Rocky grindin' - Miss Silvia brewin' too!
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8) From: Tom Gramila
Mike and Jim,
I have been exploring starting the slow finish at 400 rather than 410 as
well, mostly just to see if I could find any difference.  I roasted some
of the Mexican Oaxaca with HJT.  I made the switch from fast to slow at
410 first, them the next day making it at 400.
When I had a chance to compare both together, I thought there was a
distinct difference in the cup, with a suprising difference in roast
flavors -- fortunately, before I posted I went back and looked at the
profiles and realized that I stopped at 10 degree different FINAL
temperatures as well.  OOPS!, no big suprise that there is a detectable
difference there!
	Tom G
PS -  One of the impressions that I have had with HJT, gained by general 
impression rather than one on one comparisons, is that the roasted beans 
seem to taste good for a longer time than using the variant of mike's
modified black bear that I found gave good body to the cup.  I wonder if 
this is my imagination?
On Wed, 26 Mar 2003, miKe mcKoffee wrote:
<Snip>

9) From: Jim Schulman
Hi Tom,
I haven't roasted any really familiar beans or blends on the newer profile =
until recently. My robusta espresso blends do better on the old BB profil=
e, since there's an odd medicinal taste (better thn burnt rubber, but sti=
ll wierd) to the origin flavor of the Nanga farms. 
I roasted two lots of Blue de Brazil, one with the extra drying spell round=
 250, one without. Couldn't detect much difference in roast quality or ta=
ste. Perhaps the FR's high airflow makes extra drying unnecessary.
Don't know about relative aging though,
Jim

10) From: miKe mcKoffee
From: "Tom Gramila" 
<Snip>
Yes and no, it's that *what does good taste like* thing. The HJT was
brighter and brightness tends to fade faster over time so it's brightness
held up longer. Unfortunately after I took the pictures of the Kona Mountain
HJT/BBMM roasts I mixed the remainder together in one jar so can't do a day
six under vacuum rest comparison! I can say the Americano I'm drinking of it
as I type is still excellent...
MM;-)
FrankenFormer Rosto Roastin' - Royally Balance Brewin'
Rocky grindin' - Miss Silvia brewin' too!
PNW HomeRoast List Gathering Info' URLhttp://home.attbi.com/~mdmint/coffee/pnwhrg.htm

11) From: Tom Gramila
Hi Jim,
On Thu, 27 Mar 2003, Jim Schulman wrote:
<Snip>
   I'll bet that your previous assertion that this may be roaster
dependent is on the mark here.  If I dont do this step, I get an uneven
roast -- but with 180g in my WBI, I have litte bean mixing below 230F,
which probably demands that I go slow.  If you can really mix them up when
they are cold, maybe going slow really isnt necessary.
	If no "roasting" happens below 230, then temperature uniformity,
may well rule the day, -- which is suggested by the roaster dependence,
and if I remember correctly, was also suggested by you earlier.  However,
Jim Clark of Black Bear seemed to imply in his postings that this step
determined how much water was left in the beans for later, and that it
could change the chemistry.
	Tom G.

12) From: Jim Schulman
Hi Tom,
You wrote:
--------------
	If no "roasting" happens below 230, then temperature uniformity,
may well rule the day, -- which is suggested by the roaster dependence,
and if I remember correctly, was also suggested by you earlier.  However,
Jim Clark of Black Bear seemed to imply in his postings that this step
determined how much water was left in the beans for later, and that it
could change the chemistry.
-------------- (excuse the netmail's lack of quotes)
I'm wondering more and more about this.
I think I'm going to have to get some cheap beans and interrupt a roast eve=
ry 25F and weigh them to get a "weight loss profile"  
Alternatively, I'll have to perfect a way to weigh the beans during the roa=
st. When I tried to put the roaster on a scale, I was stymied by somethin=
g very simple - shifts in the roaster's powercord. Any suggestions? I'd l=
ove to chart weightloss profiles, and compare these to other roasters or =
using different airflows.
Jim

13) From: David Lewis
At 3:11 PM +0000 3/28/03, Jim Schulman wrote:
<Snip>
I've actually wondered if this couldn't be done automatically on a 
fully controlled roaster. If it's true that the end of the 
stabilization ramp comes when the remaining water in the beans 
reaches a small level, then it seems to me that one could hold the 
heat input constant during that phase and see a fairly sharp knee in 
the bean mass temperature when it's no longer driving off water. That 
point would be detectable with no added sensors, and could signal the 
beginning of the real roast. I suppose if it's worth anything then 
this represents a patent disclosure, with no-cost licensing for 
non-profit use, of course. (Just looking to pump up the old 
portfolio, in case I have to look for a job, times being what they 
are.)
	David
-- 
Less than 0.1 percent of the U.S. population gave 83 percent of all 
itemized campaign contributions for the 2002 elections, according to 
the Center for Responsive Politics.

14) From: Dan Bollinger
<Snip>
every 25F and weigh them to get a "weight loss
<Snip>
Jim, It's been done.  I saw a water loss graph at one of the coffee research
websites, perhaps Sivetz.  And, highly technical information such as this is
available athttp://www.asic-cafe.org/ Dan

15) From: Tom Gramila
Dan,
I looked again at the sivetz graph, and it only shows numbers for much 
higher temperatures (430F and up) than the stabilization stage (230 or 
so).  the graph is at:  http://www.sivetzcoffee.com/images/roastdegree1.jpgDid you have a different plot in mind, perhaps??
The ASIC site does seem to be a goldmine of detailed info. But whenever I
have looked at the asic site, I could never read any of the papers.  Is
anyone on the list a member??
Tom
On Fri, 28 
Mar 2003, Dan Bollinger wrote:
<Snip>

16) From: Dan Bollinger
<Snip>
That must be the one I was thinking of.
<Snip>
I'm not a member, and they say that you can buy the papers, but no one has
ever replied to my requests. Instead, I found the author's email address and
he was kind enough to email me a copy.  Might work for you, too.  You might
also check at the Coffee research sites.  Dan

17) From: Jim Schulman
Thanks Dan, I'll check it out, Jim

18) From: Jim Schulman
Thanks Dan, I'll check it out, Jim

19) From: Jim Schulman
Thanks Dan, I'll check it out, Jim


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