Argon is the only inert gas in your list. nitrogen and CO2 will react. I refer to Diedrich's memo. |
You are right, Susan -- drink it all, don't try to save it! --Hugh |
Hi, A short while back there was a discussion about various methods of storing beans, with someone saying he was going to jerryrig a mason jar with the valve from one of Tom's bags....There is a much easier method... There are vacumn plugs that go into wine bottles which can be pumped to pull the air out...They are inexpensive and can be found in "kitchen" shops and wine shops..For about $10 you can get the pump and two or three plugs. One brand is VacuVin. Another isWine Air Vac. .. One of the advantages of using old wine bottles is that 1) they are plentiful, 2) they come in various colors to keep light out and 3) Some of them are very pleasing aesthetically (much nicer than Mason jars) The "disadvantage is that they take a little more time to fill.... I've been using this method for quite some time now and am very pleased with the results. Ciao, Angelo BTW, for the gentleman who is attempting to use the valves from the bags, I think one of these plugs could be used quite easily on a Mason jar. Just make the hole, put silicon sealer (make sure it's food grade) around the rim of the hole, put the plug in and pump away. |
Interesting concept. I went to the website for VacuVin and discovered that they actually have a product that is designed for storing coffee. I don't know what it costs because the website is oriented toward potential distributors. I could ask, but I'm not a potential distributor so I didn't want to bother them. Perhaps Tom could check into this. Don At 05:37 PM 7/20/00 -0400, you wrote: <Snip> |
Don, That unit is sold under many brands. Coffee Safe is one. I've seen them for about $20. I picked up a brand-x one in a local coffee shop for $16. Works great... Uses the same plugs as the VacuVin.. The only advantage is the wide mouth. One might say that it's not an advantage because when you open it more surface is exposed to the "evil" air... Next topic: How many angels dance on a coffee bean? Ciao, Angelo <Snip> |
on 7/20/00 7:50 PM, Angelo at angelo wrote: <Snip> But if the beans have been outgassing, shouldn't they be covered with a CO2 blanket? Since CO2 is heavier than air (I know, there's CO2 in air, but it's not the largest component), it should keep the beans covered. |
Hi all,
Some freshness thoughts....
I have never been too hot on the vacuum storage idea. The reason is that,
from my perspective, most home roasters are TRYING to get their coffee to
age, no preserve freshness. Secondly, fresh coffee will purge oxygen from a
valve package for up to 5 days after roasting depending on the storage
conditions, how many times its opened etc... But it will do it. Lastly, you
are tryint to create an oxygen free environment. Natural flushing of o2
from a package is best, You do this very effectively by packageing ASAP
after roasting, like 1/2 hour (coffee needs to be completely cooled ---.
BTW this is where a lot of pro roasting operatuions fail miserably. They
dont get the fresh coffee into the valve bags until their production
schecdule allows it. That is rartly within an hour of roasting...) Then you
have gas flushing. Nitrogen is widely used but it DOES have a flavor effect
on packagiug. Then you have a vacuum. But pull a vacuum, and unless its
with lab quality equipment you havent evacuated the o2 from the coffee.
More significatny, vacuum canning of coffee was with a stale product that
had no de-gassing left to do. What happens when you vacuum package truly
fresh coffee? Do these wine selaers have one way valves? Anyway, its a lot
to think about, and it really is a BIG concern of roasters out there trying
to extend coffee freshness. Everything I roast is gone long before its an
issue.....
Now, I know theres many on the list who differ in opinion and DO think
(from their own tests) than vacuums help, and are useful!
Tom
"Great coffee comes from tiny roasters"
Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting - Tom & Maria
http://www.sweetmarias.com |
Tom is absolutely right. If you seal up your coffee in an air tight jar within a few hours after roasting, your coffee will continue to improve for up to ten days, depending on the varietal and the roast. The small amount of oxygen present in the jar at the time of sealing is NECESSARY for the coffee to rest (age), just as the small amount of oxygen that seeps in through a wine cork is necessary for a bottle of wine to properly age. Too much oxygen, on the other hand, will accelerate staleness, just like leaving a bottle of wine open over night will destroy it. Or,like leaving sliced bread out on the counter over night. True coffee professionals all agree that there is NO practical way to successfully preserve roasted coffee freshness more than a couple of weeks. You can do that in a plain old mason jar. So, just keep on roastin' and ENJOY! --Hugh |
Hugh, I agree that degassing should occur in a sealed container. But at some point you are going to have to open the container to make coffee. At this point it makes sense to me to transfer the beans into a container from which the oxygen can be removed unless you plan to grind the entire batch right then and there. The difference may be minimal. I have have no way to try it. But the argument in favor of this approach sounds persuasive to me. Don At 07:41 PM 7/20/00 -0700, you wrote: <Snip> |
Don, I understand your desire to keep your coffee fresh, but why not just use it up quickly? If you use 1/2 pint jars and have, say, one half of the volume of beans left after a brew, Those beans will usually still be outgassing for another 3-5 days after you open the jar. That's assuming that you sealed your beans up right after they've cooled. If you want you beans to age sooner, leave them out in the cooling trays longer before you seal them. For some coffees, this is a must if you want to drink them the day after roasting, particularly on a lighter roast that may need some oxygenation to get rid of the vegetative qualities, gain body and complexity. Mason jars are not COMPLETELY air tight. The higher pressure of the CO2 inside the jar may expel some of the (small) amount of O2 that you let in when you first opened the jar. It certainly prevents more O2 from getting in. There is ongoing chemistry that benefits from SMALL amounts of O2. But, the bottom line is that you have a "window" of time when every coffee and roast will be at its optimum. You must learn where that is, then brew. I have had several discussions with members of the Diedrich family, who have been growing, roasting, and selling coffee for three generations. I think Martin Diedrich pretty well sums it up in an article on the Diedrich web site: "Freshness is probably the most misunderstood factor about coffee. It is not the purchase date nor how it was packaged, stored or ground that determines its freshness. The date of the roast is the key to freshness. Within two weeks the beans lose more than half of their flavor. After six weeks the oils become rancid. While exposure to air and moisture accelerates the decomposition of the flavors, the process will continue even in a complete vacuum. Freezing the beans may stop this decomposition but freezing also destroys the delicate oils and aromatics. Never freeze a quality fresh roasted coffee. The indisputable truth is that coffee cannot be fresh unless it is fresh roasted. " Note, "the process will continue even in a complete vacuum." These people have spent years (and a lot of money) trying to figure out how to store roasted coffee. This is their conclusion. The rest of this article may be of some interest to some. I posted it a few months ago, but there are quite a few new members on the list. Here's the link: http://www.diedrich.com/tips/index.htmlIt's worth a read! --Hugh Solaas |
Hugh, please expand on your "ongoing chemistry" that needs oxygen. I had been planning to do some digging into the oxygen issue but have not had the time yet. I have long felt that oxygen is necessary for full flavor development. You may check the archives for my exposure experiment. And as for storage, let me restate that I leave my coffee in an open jar until it is consumed usually within 5 days. -- Ken Mary - Aromaroast - whirlyblade - decanter ---------- <Snip> <Snip> |
<Snip> For us (two people), the 1/2 pound Alpenrost is ideal. We roast 1/2 pound, and use it over the space of about a week. I try to roast one day prior to running out so that the beans can rest for a day. I store them in a stainless steel container with a tight fitting lid. For the "rest" day, I leave the lid off. Paul Goelz Rochester Hills, MI pgoelz at eaglequest dot com Videoastronomy and music (UnFest) web site:http://www.eaglequest.com/~pgoelz |
Hugh, I am not disagreeing with you at all. What you recommend is essentially what I do already by default. My coffee doesn't hang around all that long. I am open to alternative theories, however, and the one about storing coffee in a vacuum once it has degassed appeals to me. It think it is worth a test. I use the HWP and I usually do 3 or 4 batches of different coffees in one session. I try to time my roasts so that they have degassed properly by the time I use them. It takes me about a week to go through that many beans. So I am using the beans at various points in the degassing cycle, none of which are probably the most optimum for that particular bean. I am currently trying out about 20 different types of coffee so I have a hard enough time figuring out the optimum roast for any particular variety in my particular roaster without getting absorbed in the intricacies of optimum degassing strategies. Nevertheless, the concept intrigues me. Don At 09:44 AM 7/21/00 -0700, you wrote: <Snip> |
Perhaps five years ago or more, the Wine Spectator had a physics professor
measure the vacuum generated from the Vacu-Vin. Surprisingly, said vacuum
vanished within 24 hours. It is not a total vacuum anyway. One other
concern is that in attempting to create a vacuum, the volatile aromatics
from both wine and coffee would be pulled out. The wine purist would use a
rare element gas such as argon - see Dave Beyer's site for information
about that, linked somewhere on Sweet Maria's.
Carl
|
You can certainly use it. The only question that comes to mind is when is the container filled up with the inert gas? Someone would have to run a scientifically controlled experiment to see if the preservation system really made a difference in the taste of the coffee. It has already been noted that roasted coffee beans benefit from an open degassing. If you read Illy's book, "Espresso Coffee," you will find out that the degassing process continues for weeks, not just a few days. There is a graph showing that at 2400 hours after air-cooling there is nearly 0% carbon dioxide left. It appears that about 50% of the CO2 is released around 300 hours. If one can conveniently roast and have always fresh roasted coffee beans around, why bother attempting to preserve them? It would appear from the postings that one can go at least three or four days, just letting them sit around out in the open. So that one could roast with an HWP, let us say, four or five days worth of coffee beans, given an assortment of green beans and different roasts. The one drawback is the time that it takes. It should be possible to do four roasts within an hour with an HWP. At 10:19 PM 7/21/00 -0400, you wrote: <Snip> |
We use something called "Private Preserve" to keep leftover wine. It is a blend of nitrogen, argon, and carbon dioxide. It comes in a sort of pressurized can that feels completely empty. You just spray it into your wine bottle and recork immediately. My husband is wondering if this would work for storing coffee beans, too. I myself think you should just go ahead and drink it all. Also the wine. Susan |
<Snip> This is interesting.....I've gone back to my vacuumned bottles after 2-3 days and was greeted with a "woosh" of air whenI pinched the valve to open the bottle..Is this not an indication of a vacuum being normalized? But I guess if a scientist says so, it must be true.. Who am I to believe, a scientist or my lying ears?? <Snip> I'm under the impression(rightly or wrongly) that a total vacuum cannot exist except in space.... Another myth trashed? Oh, well. Live and learn... :-) ciao, Angelo One other <Snip> a <Snip> |
Hey!! No badmouthing scientists, please. If you want to question someone's veracity, question that of the person who blindly believes something just because he read a report that claimed "scientists found something" without first checking the references and the integrity of the cited research. charlotte |
I guess that's what I was doing.. I should have put the word the word, "scientist" in quotes. (Opps. I just did.) Too many people these days use unnamed sources to back up their claims.. I was referring to this type of idolatry of the word. No offense, intended to true scientists...:-) Now, maybe if we could only find out how Michael Jordan or Bill Gates store their beans...... Ciao, Angelo <Snip> |
Yes, that whooshing sound was characterized in the Wine Spectator article written by Matt Kramer, I believe, as "sucking." That is in more ways than one. At 01:54 PM 7/22/00 -0400, you wrote: <Snip> |
For the person who wanted to affix the valves from the vacuum bags to a Mason jar: There is a system which does exactly that. You punch a hole in the cap with the supplied punch and fasten the valve over the hole..It looks like it has adhesive on it. Then you use the pump, which is similar to the Vacu-Vin punp.It too, is supplied in the kit.. One benefit of this vacuum thing is that you can seal your cereals and noshes and keep them fresh few days longer... Also, it helps foods marinate more quickly...sorta pulls the air out of the meat and the marinade rushes in to fill the void..I think that's how it works...(treading softly, here) The URL was sent to the list a while back, but in the interests of the rules, I won't post it here. I will, however, glady send it directly to anyone who wants it. Ciao, Angelo |