Does anybody know any specifics about aging beans? Relative humidity, temperature, time? Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!http://sbc.yahoo.com
<Snip> Relative humidity, temperature, time? Humidity high, but not so high as to get condensation with temperature change . . . around 80% (or higher). Beans that "dry out" will not "age". Temperature (relatively) high, around 90F (+), and constant enough to avoid condensation. Traditional aging takes from six months to several years . . . I find no reports of "accelerated" aging (perhaps at higher temperature?), though surely someone has tried . "Aging", as opposed to "getting old", involves specific chemical changes in the beans that are in some ways like "slow roasting". Much of the browning of aged beans comes from the same Maillard reaction that occurs during roasting (except that in aging it's enzyme catalyzed instead of thermally initiated). Lots of things can go wrong, though . . . most particularly moulds and "unintended" fermentations. Rapidly changing temperatures bring disaster . . . cool beans and hot, humid air guarantee condensation, which then guarantees mould. In traditional aging the sacks are turned frequently, even daily, to insure uniformity and prevent mould. Deward
On Saturday, July 19, 2003, at 02:05 AM, dewardh wrote: <Snip> Or more precisely, beans that have dried out too much will not "age". The odds are that any beans we get have already crossed the dried out threshold and any attempt to "age" them will simply produce old beans. I love aged coffee and have looked into trying to do it but I have concluded that the only way to do it is to move to a coffee growing area. Jim Gundlach
Aren't the beans aged in parchment? C --- dewardh wrote: <Snip>http://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html===== Brick Oven Roasting in British Columbia Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!http://sbc.yahoo.com
Charlie: <Snip> That's a surprisingly difficult question to answer (from the literature). "aged" and "aging" are not even indexed in "All About Coffee", although there is a brief mention of the process in the "Sumatra" section. I find no hint anywhere of "post aging processing", and so have to assume that the parchment is removed prior to aging. Deward
--- dewardh wrote: <Snip> Well, I wonder. I've seen green beans turn white within weeks when stored in a hot, humid place, but when kept in the same location in parchment they pass through the rainy season and months more, then shell out beautifull, even better than if milled freshly dried. I'm almost sure that the Indian monsooned coffee is kept in parchment, but the other aged coffees I haven't found any info on at all. There definately should be some post aging processing in any case, just grading out stinkers and such. Charlie ===== Brick Oven Roasting in British Columbia Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!http://sbc.yahoo.com
7/19/03 4:17:08 PM, "dewardh" wrote: >Charlie: > >> Aren't the beans aged in parchment? > >That's a surprisingly difficult question to answer (from the literature). >"aged" and "aging" are not even indexed in "All About Coffee", although there is >a brief mention of the process in the "Sumatra" section. I find no hint >anywhere of "post aging processing", and so have to assume that the parchment is >removed prior to aging. parchment is a very good bean protector, and much coffee is held in parchment until just prior to final sort & shipment. my assumption would be that aged coffee *is* aged in pergamino.
Barry: <Snip> You may well be correct . . . I have found some references (one below) on the web that suggest so. But I also found two that say that the coffee is aged without parchment. I find nothing in any of the coffee books that I have that say, one way or the other. This article discusses spoilage issues and implies leaving the parchment on:http://ceventura.ucdavis.edu/Agriculture265/Coffee.htmAnd this one is quite explicit (see item 7) that the aging is done *after* the">http://www.coffee.20m.com/MICROBL3.htmWhile this one says after removal:http://ceventura.ucdavis.edu/Agriculture265/Coffee.htmAnd this one is quite explicit (see item 7) that the aging is done *after* the parchment is milled:http://www.badgettcoffee.com/issue12.htmlIt may well be done *both* ways, depending on who and where. If you'll pay the air fare I'll go to Sumatra and see . . . Deward
I work in a bakery, okay, okay, I work in a Cinnamon Roll place. They've got a nice piece of equipment known as a proofer, or a proof box. It's used to accelerate the rising process of the dough. At any rate it has adjustable temperature and humidity. The one I use has a digital readout for temp, none for RH. Although I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to find that option. One could always fiddle with the knobs to get the highest setting possible without causing condensation, although being able to control each variable at differant stages through the process may yield some benefit. Unfortunately my passion far exceeds my budget, and if I had a few extra grand I would upgrade some of my other systems first. As for undried greens... Aloha! Doug S. Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!http://sbc.yahoo.com
At 07:27 PM 7/19/03 -0700, you wrote: >And this one is quite explicit (see item 7) that the aging is done *after* the >parchment is milled: > >http://www.badgettcoffee.com/issue12.htmlbadgett's can be a fun read, but i wouldn't quote it as an authority....
At 08:44 PM 7/19/03 -0700, you wrote: <Snip> i've got an oven/proofer combo in my basement that's available for not much $$.
Barry: <Snip> Well, who is? And in any case badgett credits "Armeno Coffee Roasters Ltd." for the article in question, wherever *they* stand in the "authority" hierarchy. I've no idea where the UC Davis paper stands, either, since there are no citations, and the author is clearly more concerned with botany than with processing. And Calvert (where does he fit in the "authority" hierarchy?) notes "the only way to preserve [green] coffee for as long as possible is to keep it in parchment form. Once coffee is hulled and more particularly polished, the aging process . . . is inevitable". But if the *goal* is to "age" the coffee, and if "time is money", then aging after milling *may* be a way to get there faster . . . Do *you* know? Got "authoritative" sources? Deward
<Snip> I can vouch for the quality of their beans and their skill at roasting, but I have no opinion as to their research skills.
At 12:47 AM 7/20/03 -0700, you wrote: >And Calvert (where does he fit in the "authority" hierarchy?) notes "the only >way to preserve [green] coffee for as long as possible is to keep it in >parchment form. Once coffee is hulled and more particularly polished, the >aging process . . . is inevitable". But if the *goal* is to "age" the coffee, >and if "time is money", then aging after milling *may* be a way to get there >faster . . . i think you're talking two different definitions of "aging" in this paragraph. i'm not sure the aging you're after can be hurried along, as it involves a fair amount of internal changes. as such, it would seem storage in parchment would be better overall. >Do *you* know? nope.
Barry: <Snip> i'm not sure the aging you're after can be hurried along, as it involves a fair amount of internal changes. There is certainly ample ambiguity in all the discussion of aging that I have found. Some things do *seem* clear (or at least commonly agreed upon). 1) coffee stored at 70F or below and at or below 12% moisture content does not "age", it only "gets old"; 2) "beneficial aging" is accomplished at temperatures around 90F or above and where bean moisture content is at least 12%, or above (a high atmospheric humidity is necessary to keep the beans from over-drying); 3) there may be a "fermentation" (bacterial or fungal) component to the aging process, which might differ from local to local (the constant stirring often referenced in discussion of rapid (single season) aging, as in "monsooning", not only keeps bean temperature and humidity more uniform, but insures uniform inoculation of all the bean mass); 4) these processes may be slowed, for better or for worse, by leaving the beans "in parchment". The aged beans that I have bought from SweetMaria's have a "rough" look about them that I have difficulty associating with recent milling. On the other hand, the aging process (including the constant turning) itself might sufficiently loosen the parchment that it could be removed in a simple air separator, if it was present at the start of aging. If there is post-aging milling done to the beans so far no-one is copping to it . And apart from obviously white or obviously black beans I don't know exactly what to look for when picking out "stinkers" . . . almost none of the beans in an aged batch would pass if you mixed them with a fresh-crop Kona . The time involved, and all the uncertainties of process, suggests to me that "home coffee aging" is *not* the "next big thing" in this "hobby" . Deward