HomeRoast Digest


Topic: 1234 or WTC, which'll it be! (14 msgs / 694 lines)
1) From: miKe mcKoffee
I've been graced with an Aromatic Mailbox today! Espresso blender
extraordinare, our own Jim Schulman, came up with a blend earlier this year,
just before the PNW Gathering, called WTC for way too complicated. Yes it
was complicated but my roast version of it made excellent shots IMO. Now he
gets back to simpler with a new 1234 don't need no more blend. Low and
behold roasts of both spring forth from this wonderful smelling package.
(BTW, I sent Jim my extended profile smoothed out Mika roast to sample so
don't feel too left out:-)
First double shot pull of 1234 was off, 17sec. Took a sip, not half bad,
dumped it and adjusted grind down. Second shot still a bit short, 22sec, but
well within range and gorgeous 80%+ crema. Pretty tasty shot. Drank it all
gone.
Adjusted Rocky down one more click to my 4, loaded Jim's WTC this time.
Nailed a 26sec 2.25oz 80%+ darkish reddish brown crema shot.
B-E-A-U-T-I-F-U-L! Dang this tastes outstanding. While the 1234 is simpler
to roast, I still think Jim's WTC blend makes one the best straight shots
around. It seems just a bit smoother, fuller, rounder, more complete than
the 1234. Bright but not too bright, heavy but not too heavy, smooth but not
too smooth, the kind of shot that could turn me into a full blown *espresso
hound* if I'm not careful!
I didn't takes pic's of these pulls but here's the one's I took of my roast
of Jim's WTC for the Gathering...http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/SilviaWTC.htmDon't need no stinkin' robusta for fabulous crema!
(unless pulling shots from stale beans maybe:-)
Hmmm, it's a weekday, is it too late to pull another double shot of each
back to back for head to head sampling...
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
MCSE (Maniacal Coffee Systems Engineer/Enthusiast;-)
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer etc.http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htm

2) From: miKe mcKoffee
Yup, replying to self...
I just pulled back to back of both for head to head comparison. Pulled each
into two demitasse so Debi could compare too. Both of us prefer the WTC over
1234. The 1234 seems to have a bit too much bite, not as smooth. But the
1234 would probably be the
superior if using in milk based drink. The 1234 might make a better
Americano too, haven't compared them that way yet. But straight shot, I
still say the WTC about the best I've ever had. Both your roast of it and
mine. Very smooth balanced almost sweet tasting shot with great aroma and
finish. Still tasting it 5 minutes later! Speaking of which, I have some of
my version vacuum sealed in the freezer. Think I'll pull it out for a three
month vacuum frozen storage to your fresh, vacuum sealed since I got it
yesterday head to head comparison! (will do tomorrow, just finished the 1234
WTC head to head and now *must* soon leave to take Debi out to dinner, when
we get home it'll be Wood's Kona Americano for dessert:-)
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
MCSE (Maniacal Coffee Systems Engineer/Enthusiast;-)
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer etc.http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htm

3) From: Jim Schulman
Maybe i should have quit while I was ahead!
Actually I have a "homeroaster's approach" to espresso blends; 
not the great masterpiece each pro roaster sells, but at least 
two new ones a month, some better, some worse.
Jim
On 18 Sep 2003 at 16:32, miKe mcKoffee wrote:
<Snip>

4) From: Jason Molinari
Could you post the WTC formula...i seem to have missed it!
thanks
j
<Snip>

5) From: Jim Schulman
Hi Jason:
WTC:
Fast roast: 20% Harar, 20% Kenya, 40% Brazil, 20% Aged Sulawesi
Slow Roast: 20% Antigua, 40% Yauco, 30% Uganda Budadiri, 10% 
Regular Sulawesi
1234:
10% Kenya, 20% Harar, 30% Aged Sulawesi, 40% Brazil
Jim
On 19 Sep 2003 at 22:28, Jason Molinari wrote:
<Snip>

6) From: Brian Hyde
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
  
Hey Jim, how fast is fast and how slow is slow for you?  Could you quantify
that for me?  Graphs are pretty too, but if you just have totals I will assume
fairly linear heating to Vienna stage. 
Thanks,
Brian
Jim Schulman wrote:
  Hi Jason:
WTC:
Fast roast: 20% Harar, 20% Kenya, 40% Brazil, 20% Aged Sulawesi
Slow Roast: 20% Antigua, 40% Yauco, 30% Uganda Budadiri, 10% 
Regular Sulawesi
1234:
10% Kenya, 20% Harar, 30% Aged Sulawesi, 40% Brazil
Jim
On 19 Sep 2003 at 22:28, Jason Molinari wrote:
  
  
    Could you post the WTC formula...i seem to have missed it!
thanks
j
    
    
      From: "Jim Schulman" <jim_schulman>
Date: 2003/09/19 Fri PM 09:43:56 EDT
To: homeroast
Subject: Re: +1234 or WTC, which'll it be!
Maybe i should have quit while I was ahead!
Actually I have a "homeroaster's approach" to espresso blends;
not the great masterpiece each pro roaster sells, but at least
two new ones a month, some better, some worse.
Jim
On 18 Sep 2003 at 16:32, miKe mcKoffee wrote:
      
      
        I've been graced with an Aromatic Mailbox today! Espresso
blender extraordinare, our own Jim Schulman, came up with a
blend earlier this year, just before the PNW Gathering,
called WTC for way too complicated. Yes it was complicated
but my roast version of it made excellent shots IMO. Now he
gets back to simpler with a new 1234 don't need no more
blend. Low and behold roasts of both spring forth from this
wonderful smelling package. (BTW, I sent Jim my extended
profile smoothed out Mika roast to sample so don't feel too
left out:-)
First double shot pull of 1234 was off, 17sec. Took a sip,
not half bad, dumped it and adjusted grind down. Second shot
still a bit short, 22sec, but well within range and gorgeous
80%+ crema. Pretty tasty shot. Drank it all gone.
Adjusted Rocky down one more click to my 4, loaded Jim's WTC
this time. Nailed a 26sec 2.25oz 80%+ darkish reddish brown
crema shot. B-E-A-U-T-I-F-U-L! Dang this tastes outstanding.
While the 1234 is simpler to roast, I still think Jim's WTC
blend makes one the best straight shots around. It seems just
a bit smoother, fuller, rounder, more complete than the 1234.
Bright but not too bright, heavy but not too heavy, smooth
but not too smooth, the kind of shot that could turn me into
a full blown *espresso hound* if I'm not careful!
I didn't takes pic's of these pulls but here's the one's I
took of my roast of Jim's WTC for the Gathering...
http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/SilviaWTC.htmDon't need no stinkin' robusta for fabulous crema!
(unless pulling shots from stale beans maybe:-)
Hmmm, it's a weekday, is it too late to pull another double
shot of each back to back for head to head sampling...
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
MCSE (Maniacal Coffee Systems Engineer/Enthusiast;-)
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer etc.
http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htmhomeroast mailing list
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7) From: Jim Schulman
Hi Brian,
Actually, for me the roasts take the same amount of time! The 
"fast" beans use less heat, and would roast faster if you used a 
roaster that supplies a fixed inflow heating profile. I 
segregate them to get even roasts on both batches.
On 2 Oct 2003 at 14:24, Brian Hyde wrote:
<Snip>

8) From: Brian Hyde
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
  
  
Thanks Jim, that helps.  I am after all a "newbie" as everyone likes to say
and this made me a bit confused.  (I had been thinking about it since it
was posted!)  I have read that you get a bready (baked) flavour if you go
too slow.  On the other hand too fast usually produces an uneven roast, especially
in my case.  Or maybe I should say especially in the case of a drum roaster?
 I wouldn't know, no one has had comment on my bucket roaster other than
a few chuckles at the ingenuity of it.  So, how long before we get the "bread"
or "baked" flavour?  I have never experienced it since I tend to roast too
fast if anything.  
Strange the friend who showed me how to roast used no paddles inside his
bucket.  He showed me to get to 460F as fast as possible and hold it steady
listening for the cracks and watching the beans.  He always had a very even
roast.  Also however he used an 18+ Colombian bean exclusively which he bought
by the sack. This is how I started and through experimentation moved towards
the consensus here as far as time and temperatures go after being discouraged
by my results.  Why did it work so well for him?  I wish I could ask him
the bean and where he got it, but unfortunately he is no longer with us.
 It was probably the most earthy and rich Colombian I had ever had.  It was
a strikingly different green aroma from anything I have gotten from Tom.
 Tom's bean smells very grassy but his practically smelled of clay.  The
cups were both good, but so different at the same Vienna roast.
Thanks again,
Brian
  
Jim Schulman wrote:
  Hi Brian,
Actually, for me the roasts take the same amount of time! The 
"fast" beans use less heat, and would roast faster if you used a 
roaster that supplies a fixed inflow heating profile. I 
segregate them to get even roasts on both batches.
On 2 Oct 2003 at 14:24, Brian Hyde wrote:
  
  
    Hey Jim, how fast is fast and how slow is slow for you? Could you
quantify that for me? Graphs are pretty too, but if you just have
totals I will assume fairly linear heating to Vienna stage. 
Thanks,
Brian
Jim Schulman wrote:
     Hi Jason:
     WTC:
     Fast roast: 20% Harar, 20% Kenya, 40% Brazil, 20% Aged
     Sulawesi Slow Roast: 20% Antigua, 40% Yauco, 30% Uganda
     Budadiri, 10% Regular Sulawesi
     1234:
     10% Kenya, 20% Harar, 30% Aged Sulawesi, 40% Brazil
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9) From: Jim Schulman
On 2 Oct 2003 at 16:39, Brian Hyde wrote:
<Snip>
It's hard to tell how the heat spreads to the beans in this 
setup. But my guess is that the beans rise in a fairly straight-
line profile, just like in a drum that's been preheated to a 
constant roasting temperature. One trick that may apply is to 
cut the heat during the first crack, and let the beans coast to 
the second on stored heat. This would slightly lengthen that 
part of the roast, and mellow the flavor. 
Jim

10) From: Brian Hyde
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
  
I'll give that a shot next time I roast.  You or someone had mentioned that
before.  I suppose there isn't any problems there of baking the beans?  Given
that you are already at a fairly high temperature and it won't be too long
before you get into the second exotherm and the temperature rises anyway?
 
Another few questions.  Somewhat unrelated, but still non the less about
coffee.   I have this ECM Giotto machine.  Nice machine.  For my roast of
Amber espresso blend I'm a click and a half away from the mark on the mazzer
to pull a 25 second double.  Using the single PF I can barely tamp it to
get it to flow at the same grind but I can basically get it to work.  Now
I have some Illy nude espresso cups and they came with can of preground espresso.
 For a single shot this coarse grind works great if I tamp the crud out of
it.  But in my double PF tamping the crud out of it will pull a nice 5-6
oz. cafe crema.  Is this a common thing for single and double PF's?  By the
way, compared to Tom's coffees that I roast the Illy blend is like drinking
dirty water...  
Thanks for the feedback,
Brian
Jim Schulman wrote:
  On 2 Oct 2003 at 16:39, Brian Hyde wrote:
  
  
    Strange the friend who showed me how to roast used no paddles
inside his bucket.  He showed me to get to 460F as fast as
possible and hold it steady listening for the cracks and watching
the beans.  He always had a very even roast.  
    
  
  
It's hard to tell how the heat spreads to the beans in this 
setup. But my guess is that the beans rise in a fairly straight-
line profile, just like in a drum that's been preheated to a 
constant roasting temperature. One trick that may apply is to 
cut the heat during the first crack, and let the beans coast to 
the second on stored heat. This would slightly lengthen that 
part of the roast, and mellow the flavor. 
Jim
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11) From: Jim Schulman
On 3 Oct 2003 at 12:32, Brian Hyde wrote:
<Snip>
"Baking" refers to a roast that gets stuck in the 300s, never 
reaching the first crack, goes dark brown from Maillard 
reactions without any caramelization at all, and tastes bready, 
grassy, and and pretty awful. Also hell on the grinder (thank Ed 
Needham for the precise definition)
If you spend too long at the end of the roast in the 400s, at 
worst the coffee will be dull, lacking acidity, but it won't be 
baked. If you like the roast as is, don't change a thing. If 
you're looking for a slightly lower toned, more subtle, more 
sweet cup from the same beans, try it.
<Snip>
The single and double work well on the the same grind for me. I 
overfill the double slightly, so that may be the difference. 
With preground coffee, all bets are off; it's so degraded that 
it probably doesn't behave the same way during espresso brewing.
Jim

12) From: Brian Hyde
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
  
I will definitely give the between the cracks rest a try.  Boy that sounds
awful.  Thanks to both you and Ed for the "bready" definition.  Explains
why I never got it, I have never spent long in the 300's.  Heck half the
time I don't even see them go by while I'm getting everything else ready.
Not sure which machine you use, but does your single filter basket have a
much smaller area of perforation than your double?  I had always seen the
two be the same, just the double having more depth.  This isn't the case
with mine.
Can I swap different filter baskets into my PF?  Maybe I will have to ask
the company about this.  I always hear about people using a triple basket,
I thought that would be neat to try and if other machines single isn't restricted
like mine maybe trying those too.  Any opinions on the triple basket?  Anyone
have any experience with the swapping baskets around?  Are these machines
pretty standard?  
Does the preground coffee really degrade if it's in a can that is truly sealed?
 Sealed like a budweiser I mean, not with some plastic on it.   Geez look
how long that crap lasts...   Apples and oranges I'm sure, but if it does
degrade where does it go?  Is there a chemical change in effect once the
grind has occurred?  It certainly isn't exposed to oxygen anymore.  Granted
once you pop the top you might as well be planning on drinking an entire
can...  blech!  Just wondering really, not planning on buying preground coffee.
 Actually not planning on buying anything that isn't green except one order
from Tom the next time he roasts to see the consistency and color.  I think
I ordered that.... haven't heard anything.  Was that the day my computer
crashed?  God I'm going to lose my mind before this dissertation is finished.
Cheers,
Brian
Jim Schulman wrote:
  On 3 Oct 2003 at 12:32, Brian Hyde wrote:
  
  
    I'll give that a shot next time I roast.  You or someone had
mentioned that before.  I suppose there isn't any problems there
of baking the beans?  Given that you are already at a fairly high
temperature and it won't be too long before you get into the
second exotherm and the temperature rises anyway?  
    
  
  
"Baking" refers to a roast that gets stuck in the 300s, never 
reaching the first crack, goes dark brown from Maillard 
reactions without any caramelization at all, and tastes bready, 
grassy, and and pretty awful. Also hell on the grinder (thank Ed 
Needham for the precise definition)
If you spend too long at the end of the roast in the 400s, at 
worst the coffee will be dull, lacking acidity, but it won't be 
baked. If you like the roast as is, don't change a thing. If 
you're looking for a slightly lower toned, more subtle, more 
sweet cup from the same beans, try it.
  
  
    Another few questions.  Somewhat unrelated, but still non the
less about coffee.   I have this ECM Giotto machine.  Nice
machine.  For my roast of Amber espresso blend I'm a click and a
half away from the mark on the mazzer to pull a 25 second double.
 Using the single PF I can barely tamp it to get it to flow at
the same grind but I can basically get it to work.
    
  
  
The single and double work well on the the same grind for me. I 
overfill the double slightly, so that may be the difference. 
With preground coffee, all bets are off; it's so degraded that 
it probably doesn't behave the same way during espresso brewing.
Jim
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13) From: Jim Schulman
On 3 Oct 2003 at 13:31, Brian Hyde wrote:
<Snip>
I use a Mazzer and a Tea, same group, PF and baskets as yours. A 
single basket with the same perforation area and a shallower 
puck is a design disaster. You are looking to get the same shot 
timing for half the volume from half the coffee. The perforated 
area should also be half. It takes as much practice to make good 
singles as doubles. With the Faema E61 baskets (that's the name 
of your group), use the same grind and tamp, and play with the 
amount of coffee you put in both baskets till it's right. You'll 
find the single basket actually holds about 3/5 to 2/3 of the 
coffee the double holds. You can order the 6 gram Faema basket 
if you want precisely half the volume.
<Snip>
You can use any commercial espresso basket you want.
<Snip>
Ground coffee degrades as much in an hour as bean coffee in two 
to three weeks. If it isn't shot by the time it reaches the can, 
it certainly is by the time you make your second cup from it.
Jim

14) From: Ron Sand
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
Message
Once 
ground, the CO2 and volatile compounds are released rather rapidly.  I 
believe the coffee must be rested before it is sealed or the container will blow 
up like a soda can in the freezer.  That is why all coffee bags have a one 
way valve in them.
 
Ron


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