HomeRoast Digest


Topic: green coffee storage (36 msgs / 856 lines)
1) From: Erickson, Lisa
I've seen miKe's setup (nice cart); how is everyone else storing their green
beans?  I have a Foodsaver, but Tom writes that you shouldn't trap the beans
in an airtight environment as the coffee needs to breathe.
Wondering what to do...
Lisa

2) From: Rick Farris
Mike, you want to take this one?  :-)

3) From: miKe mcKoffee

4) From: John Abbott
Erickson, Lisa wrote:
<Snip>
Lisa,
I believe that the burlap in a cool dry place is probably the most 
adequate way to store.  Several of us have run taste test experiments on 
beans stored in a vacuum. Both Mike and I stored beans from one February 
to the next and found no detectable shift in the roasting or taste.  I 
would tend to listen to Tom above all else because I know of nobody who 
has his qualifications.   Having said that - I have about 45 pounds of 
greens stored in vacuum bags because of the 2 year use rule.  I would 
not have gone through my stock in the one year that I allow myself after 
purchasing them from Tom.    You might find beans for sale at below 
Tom's prices now and then and what you are usually buying are old beans 
and/or lower grade beans.    But I tend to be mindless when I start 
ordering and find myself with a growing supply of greens - all carefully 
stored and dated.  When I have had beans for six months they get vacuum 
stored.
Make sense?
John - expert on life in a vacuum

5) From: rnkyle
I vac seal my beans directly after they arrive. I have found no problem with
this method and have opened bags stored more then one year and they smell as
fresh as they did when I got them. There is no noticeable difference in cup
quality that I can detect. I'm sure Mike will back me up on this.
Ron Kyle
rnkyle
Roasting Drums for gas grillshttp://rnk10.tripod.com

6) From: miKe mcKoffee

7) From: dewardh
Mike:
<Snip>
moisture in inviting mold etc. 
<Snip>
Not exactly . . .
Vacuum sealing "locks in" moisture (and locks out moisture, too), just like any
"airtight" container.  A kilo of beans at 12% moisture content contains 120
grams of water . . . vacuum sealing does not take that away (and some small
portion of it will diffuse out into the space between the beans, at whatever the
vapor pressure of water is at storage temperature, whether there is air there or
not).  Any sealing, vacuum or otherwise, simply prevents further drying (or
rehydration if the beans are stored in high humidity or condensing conditions).
Vacuum sealing *does* remove Oxygen from the bean's "environment" (assuming the
bag has/is an Oxygen diffusion barrier), but is no better in that regard than a
Nitrogen or CO2 purge (in the same bag).  For long term storage the "airtight"
(no diffusion) part is more important than the "vacuum" part, because the amount
of Oxygen present in a sealed container full of beans is small relative to the
amount of beans.  Excluding Oxygen from the storage container does prevent some
rancidity reactions, kills bugs, and does prevent mold (molds are aerobes), but
has no effect on spoilage from anaerobic fermentations (and may even encourage
it).
Vacuum sealing does make a neat and tidy package (compared to other, equally
effective, sealing), but the benefits are more in the eye (and imagination) of
the beholder than in the content of the bag.  The long term storage benefits of
constant moisture content (including not over drying) and Oxygen exclusion,
along with the retention of aromatics and other volatile components of the
beans, are accomplished by any sealed container just as well.  Of course if one
regularly accesses the container then it should be re-purged or re-evacuated at
each re-sealing (if the intent is Oxygen exclusion).
Deward

8) From: john
Can't I just leave them in the paper bags and lock them my (not air tight)
safe?
john
Wake Up and Smell the Coffeehttp://www.drzeus.net/coffee<Snip>

9) From: miKe mcKoffee
Deward,
You have of course vacuum sealed greens for 2 or more years to validate your
statements? And also kept hermetically sealed unpurged containers of greens
an equal length of time to validate the statement it works equally as well
as vacuum sealing?
My taste comparing results of 2yr vacuum sealed Kona greens with over a
dozen other Kona greens I don't believe is my imagination BTW. And yes, I
have tasted 2 & 3yr conventional cloth bagged stored then roasted greens.
They do not hold their flavor characteristics even close.
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
MCSE (Maniacal Coffee Systems Engineer/Enthusiast;-)
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer etc.http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htm

10) From: miKe mcKoffee
(Yeah, replying to self.)
Actually I haven't compared all three storage methods head to head but am
now. Three 1/3# packages of Panama LaBerlina 03 set aside for long term
storage comparison. One package Foodsaver bag vacuum sealed, one package
Foodsaver bag flattened and sealed but not vacuumed, one package SM cottom
bag. Not comparing nitrogen or CO2 purge since I don't have the requisite
equipment on hand. Results in 2 or 3 years. MM;-)

11) From: John Abbott
On Saturday 15 November 2003 11:08 pm, John Kangas wrote:
<Snip>
How about helium - then you wouldn't have to worry about stacking the bags. 
You could tell when they were ready when they came back down to floor level.

12) From: John Abbott
On Sunday 16 November 2003 02:55 am, javafool wrote:
<Snip>
Oh man, I hate it when people push to the head of the line!  :O)
I did like "Girth" though Gin.
crashed my computer AGAIN - can't use Partition Commander - keeps rebooting. 
Can't use Disk Wipe - can't find physical unit. Can't install Red Hat - can't 
find any room.  BUT - Knoppix (lets hear it for German Engineering) popped 
right up ready to do my bidding.   So when I build my dedicated Linux box to 
run my jet engine and cement mixer its going to have Knoppix on board!!
John - clearly having more fun that the rest of the world!

13) From: dewardh
Mike:
<Snip>
Actually a couple of "cloth bag" samples would be useful (and generate a lot
more information) . . . keeping one at (near) constant humidity (basement?) and
another in the house where it would (probably) over dry rather quickly (unless
you run a humidifier in the Winter).  Temperature stability would probably be a
good goal, too . . .
The obvious advantage of sealed storage is that it preserves humidity in the
package (and prevents "contamination").  Whether there are counterbalancing
disadvantages is an open question.  I'm inclined to suspect that both sealing
and reduced temperature (but not freezing) would extend the storage life of
green beans, but that's not the "conventional wisdom" on the subject . . .
<Snip>
The shield gas from your MIG welder would do fine (and the regulator is already
there, too ).  Either Argon or 75/25 . . .
<Snip>
Don't forget where you hid them . . .  . . .
Deward

14) From: John Kangas
<Snip>
That's what occured to me, being a welder... Maybe argon, just to make it 
completely neutral. Dunno if the moisture in the beans would react with CO2, 
but then again it could be interesting to see what a little carbonic acid 
would do over time... Probably nothing good, if it did anything at all!
John
From Beethoven to the Rolling Stones, your favorite music is always playing 
on MSN Radio Plus. No ads, no talk. Trial month FREE!  http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio

15) From: dewardh
John:
<Snip>
Good point . . . (good question, too).  Probably not enough to be significant .
. . but . . . just forget that I mentioned 75/25  . . . (or maybe it's
something else to try ? ? ?).
Deward

16) From: John Blumel
On Nov 15, 2003, at 4:45 PM, dewardh wrote:
<Snip>
Or, you could just not keep more than 6 months of greens on hand and 
not worry so much about the storage conditions -- as long as they 
aren't horrible. With all the great coffees coming out all the time, 
there's always something interesting or new to try. It is also 
interesting to consider that, if you keep 2-3 years worth of greens on 
hand, you're going to have 2-3 years of greens go to waste when you 
die. And you never know when that's going to happen.
John Blumel

17) From: miKe mcKoffee

18) From: rnkyle
Snip from Mike McKoffee
<Snip>
that
<Snip>
(immediately
<Snip>
You will get no argument from me Mike, I am a firm believer in vac sealing
greens, and roasted coffee. I know it maintains the freshness and the aroma
is like new crop.
I also vac seal roasted coffee just after cooling and put it in the freezer.
I have left it 2 to 3 weeks before removing it and let it rest in the bag a
day or two to degas, no noticeable difference in taste from a 2 to 3 day
rested fresh roast. I'm a firm believer in Vacuum sealing coffee.
Ron Kyle
rnkyle
Roasting Drums for gas grillshttp://rnk10.tripod.com

19) From: W. Scholtes
At 03:38 PM 11/15/2003 -0800, Mike wrote:
<Snip>
Damn, Mike, I doubt that there are any on the list who have slept less 
during the past twelve months, based on that consumption level!
Unless you have the same tolerance to most drugs that I suffer from, that is.
As far as Kona pickiness, you definitely trump everyone else (including Tom).
  "Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most."*
      *A. Brilliant

20) From: miKe mcKoffee
---- Original Message ----- 
From: "gin" 
<Snip>
<Snip>
If you'd followed the thread I thought the point was obvious, when in
context with the rest of the thread, and the rest of the paragraph partially
quoted. Deward suggested my believing 2yr old vacuum stored Kona greens
could be as good as fresh crop could be just my imagination.
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
MCSE (Maniacal Coffee Systems Engineer/Enthusiast;-)
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer etc.http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htm

21) From: Rick Farris
Deward wrote:
<Snip>
What determines vapor pressure?
-- Rick

22) From: dewardh
Mike:
<Snip>
good as fresh crop could be just my imagination.
Just for the record, that's *not* what I said.  Not even close, actually.
"Kona" wasn't even mentioned (why bother, it's the Coors of coffee . . . no
body, lots of hype ).  Neither was how long it might retain its "quality"
mentioned.  You had posted "vacuum sealing and air tight is an entirely
different matter", and it was to that I replied, noting that the benefit would
probably be from the sealing, not the vacuum.  
The "vacuum" process would remove maybe 100 mg of Oxygen per pound of green
coffee (in a bag).  All other variables remain pretty much constant (moisture
content, etc.).  Vacuum sealing makes a "tidy" bag, for the people who care
about such things . . .
Deward
"Vacuum sealing does make a neat and tidy package (compared to other, equally
effective, sealing), but the benefits are more in the eye (and imagination) of
the beholder than in the content of the bag.  The long term storage benefits of
constant moisture content (including not over drying) and Oxygen exclusion,
along with the retention of aromatics and other volatile components of the
beans, are accomplished by any sealed container just as well."

23) From: javafool
Wow gin you must really got it!     time and time again your responses make
it to Florida ahead of the original posts. Must be too much coffee dear, way
too much caffeine.
tf

24) From: miKe mcKoffee
Top posting 'cuz it's getting convoluted:
Two year old vacuum sealed Kona was what I used in my original example of
vacuum sealing prolonging greens shelf life which was the message you
replied to...
referring to vacumm sealing greens you said "but the benefits are more in
the eye (and imagination) of the beholder than in the content of the bag."
Since the *content of the bag* were what I roasted, tasted, and used as an
example of prolonging greens life...
But you apparently were strictly replying to the theoretical  ramifications
not what I was experiencing in the cup...
The challenges of *communicating* via email...
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
MCSE (Maniacal Coffee Systems Engineer/Enthusiast;-)
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer etc.http://mdmint.home.comcast.net/coffee/Rosto_mod.htm

25) From: dewardh
Rick:
<Snip>
Temperature.  You'll find the curves for water in any steam engineering or
chemistry handbook.
Apart from that it's an intrinsic property of any material.  In complex systems
there can be competing factors (competing equilibria) . . . the (water) vapor
pressure over "moist" salt is less than over pure water because the water is
"bound" to the salt.  The same effect happens during the "drying" phase of
roasting, as some water remains bound to the other constituents of the bean.
In any closed system (like a storage bag) there will be an equilibrium between
vapor phase and liquid (or bound, or whatever) phase that is independent of
other gases (like air) that might be present, but which varies with temperature.
Deward

26) From: Ralph Cohen
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 17:19:14 -0600, John Blumel wrote:
<Snip>
I'll bet you half the people on this list have left explicit
instructions in their wills to be buried with their greens...
Ralph

27) From: Felix Dial
Ralph Cohen wrote:
<Snip>
Someway somehow, I'm going to be cremated in a WestBend Poppery2 along with
3.5 oz of a Cup of Excellence coffee from Central America.
Felix

28) From: John Abbott
On Sunday 16 November 2003 10:56 am, Steven Dover wrote:
<Snip>
[snip], gotta vacuum the coffee
<Snip>
Whoa - who was that masked man!
John - lovin' life in the slow lane - hating Saturday night specials

29) From: Steven Dover
from Deward...
<Snip>
equally
<Snip>
of
<Snip>
Yeah...and I'm with Deward on this. How can a fellow become an expert so
fast anyway? No offense Sir - I doubt if you're the first one who's started
homeroasting, joined the list, and almost instantly {within months} became
an authority on coffee. Also, I understand that if a fellow has paid a few
c-notes for a vacuum gadget, this fellow would wanna use his gadget. But
just because one starts homeroasting, spends oodles of money on gadgets for
coffee, and makes frequent posts to this list does not make this fellow an
authority on the subject. All this hell-bent, gotta vacuum the coffee
because it's the hands down best way stuff is a bunch of bull imo. Ftr, I
have tried vacuuming green and roasted coffee. - Steve D.

30) From: John Blumel
On Nov 15, 2003, at 8:31 PM, Ralph Cohen wrote:
<Snip>
...and, no doubt, John Abbott is organizing the other half to rob their 
graves.
John Blumel

31) From: javafool
I vacuum seal because I have learned from experience that it prevents the
green beans from drying out, absorbing unwanted flavors from the surrounding
environment, and keeps it from picking up that baggy, monsooned flavor. That
is my experience even though vacuum sealing adds $, is somewhat a PITA and
doesn't make the packages in my stores any more convenient to store or to
use.
It would make better sense to buy smaller quantities and not keep it around
so long. No one can accuse me of having that much sense.
TerryF

32) From: Ben Treichel
Actually without talking to John, I was thinking the very same thing.
John Blumel wrote:
<Snip>

33) From: AlChemist John
Sometime around 15:46 11/15/2003, rnkyle typed:
<Snip>
I recall a test where MM sent various roasted coffees for 
evaluation.  Sealed, sealed with a co2 scrubber and ziplock.  The ziplock 
was unfinishable.  The sealed was quite good and the scrubbed I seem to 
recall may have also removed so of the higher volatiles.  Non IMO were 
quite as good as fresh, but very drinkable.   None also were in the freezer.
--
John Nanci 
AlChemist at large
Zen Roasting and Blending by Gestalthttp://www.dreamsandbones.net/blog/

34) From: Bruce Bowman
Try forming the contents of the bag before you pull the vacuum. If you
form 2 flat, parallel surfaces before the bagging tightens it makes
stacking less of an avalanche-in-waiting.
Bruce
<Snip>
and
<Snip>
to
<Snip>

35) From: David H.G. Hipwell
Hi All, Does anyone use reusable vacuum-sealed plastic bags to keep their green beans in (kind of like a ziplock bag with a one-way valve to suck the air out)?  I don't have any experience with vacuum packing, and am curious about vacuum sealing green coffee. I'm also wondering if a vacuum Mason jar be better than a plastic bag (I'd cut the valves off the bags, drill a hole through the lid, and glue them on)?  I'm worried that odours, humidity, and other bad stuff could make it through the plastic and contaminate my beans. I've been storing my beans in burlap or cotton sacks under my kitchen counter.  There've been some verry humid and hot days where I live, and I'm wondering if it is has affected my coffee, as I'm getting a sour flavour when I roast.   Thanks.
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36) From: Edward Bourgeois
Been using a foodsaver home vacuum with the large mouth canning jar
attachment since '05 with great success. Quarts will hold 1.5lbs and
1/2 gallon 3lbs, store in light free coolish spot.
On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 7:28 PM, David H.G. Hipwell  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Ed Bourgeois aka farmroast
Amherst MA.http://coffee-roasting.blogspot.com/Homeroast mailing list
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