| Hi all, As many of you know, I've used the iRoast2 for about 2 years now. While I am very happy with the results I get from it, the roast size has always been problematical for me. I get a finished roast of ~124 grams with it. As a result, I have started looking at other solutions to roasting. I am not yet ready to spend the $$$ (nor do I have the space) for a USRC sample roaster, so I am looking at the other roasters available. I am leaning towards the KN-8828B Programmable Model HotTop. I would rather have a 1 lb roaster than a 1/2 lb roaster, but after reading the list for quite some time, I've come to the conclusion that I rank control over quantity. I have developed roast profiles for various coffees and in the iRoast, and would like to be able to transfer that data to the new roaster if possible. (and yes, I am aware that an air roaster and drum roaster will be quite different, but the profile for the coffee may be transferable, e.g. temperature/time) The Behmor seems to have issues with separation of heating, to where everyone talks about first crack rolling into second, with little to no time between them. In my iRoast, I am able to separate first and second crack fairly easily, and the time needed to get there, so my profiles are based on time between heat points in the roast. Having a machine without the ability to closely control the temperature/time is not a frustration I am willing to pay for. While the Gene Cafe may also roast 1/2 lb, since I seem to want total control over the time/temperature cycles, I am leaning towards the HotTop, especially since it also dumps the coffee for cooling. So, is there anyone on the list who uses the KN-8828B Programmable Model HotTop as their primary roaster? If I might ask, what is your experience with it? Are you happy with the control it gives you in the roast cycle? What are it's pluses and minuses, in your opinion? But bottom line is, would you buy it again knowing what you know now? It is not a small purchase, but I am looking for something to last the next 5 or so years, when I may buy a USRC roaster. Thanks for any and all input. Best Regards, Ken B Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| Ken, You said - The Behmor seems to have issues with separation of heating, to where everyone talks about first crack rolling into second, with little to no time between them.- This definitely is NOT my experience with my Behmor. I usually see 60-90 seconds between the end of 1st and the beginning of 2nd. I've been pleased with the Behmor, its price and the coffee it produces for nearly a year. Just another data point. YMMV. Dave Westerville, OH On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 7:42 AM, Ken B wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| I get about 90 seconds between cracks using P4 with 1/2#, on the Behmor. Hey, someone mentioned 3rd crack a while back. What is that? Is that the crack you hear as flames engulf the roaster? Bruce Garley Plant Whisperer San Juan Capistrano, CA Vivir con miedo es como vivir a medias. <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| Dave which setting combo are you using to achieve that? Today I did 1/2 lb at 1lb setting using P3/C setting with Mokha Mattari and was able to space out 1C to 2C by opening the door for a bit at the onset of 2C. Are you opening the door or are you more dialed in to the machine's settings than I am? Mike On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 12:06 PM, Dave Huddle <137trimethyl26dioxopurine> wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| Ken, I concur with Dave on this - I usually get good separation between 1st and 2nd in the Behmor. A couple of us have been talking lately about having 1st run into 2nd when roasting the Guatemala Oriente DP in the Behmor, but that seems to be a quality of that particular bean (along with a higher temp to reach 1st). I haven't roasted it using another method yet, so I don't know if that changes things. One reason it's noteworthy is that it's so unusual. I don't have much else to say about your deliberations as I don't have experience with the HotTop or Gene Cafe, but I wanted to be clear on separation issue. Best, Kris McN Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| Ken, I have the B model Basic HotTop, and love the amount of control. You can adjust on the fly to get as fast or slow of a profile as you want, and as much time as you would like between 1st and 2nd. The best thing about it is you can monitor your progress, and raise or lower the heat as you go, much like the larger "pro" roasters. In my opinion it isn't worth the extra $200 for the fully programmable model, which in theory gives you the ability to run pre-set profiles. Unless you spend a lot of time with one bean developing a fixed profile, you might not use this feature. I find myself starting with a basic profile, and adjusting as I go. A lot of the comments floating around the net about shortcomings of the HotTops are related to the older models (not roasting dark enough, etc) and don't seem to apply to the B models. If you can spring for it, I would say it is worth the extra money over a Behmor (not a slight to the Behmor, it's a great roaster for the price, but doesn't have the level of control of the HT) --mike On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 7:42 AM, Ken B wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| Thanks Dave, Kris and all. I do hope that what I said was not taken as a knock against the Behmor. I am sure it is a fine machine based on reading the posts from all the people who use it. However, it seems to be a bit less programmable than I think I would be happy with, so I am looking to satisfy my need to control the process. I think the USRC would be perfect, but it takes space, and a lot of $$$. :-) I am hoping that the HT will allow me the control I desire, with repeatable results, and will last until I feel the need for the USRC. But based on the cost of the unit, I wish to hear others experiences with it as it is not a trivial purchase. Again, if anyone read what I posted as a knock against the Behmor, please accept my apologies. Nothing derogatory was meant. I just meant that based on reading posts here, it *may* be harder to separate first and second in the Behmor and control the time between them to the degree I wish to control it. Best Regards, Ken B Kris McN wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| I've been roasting a while now. I find I have settled into a bunch of favorite coffees and tend to buy them in large batches. The P model works great for me. I have all my favorite profiles in memory. If I try a new coffee usually a 2 or 5 pounder I first roast it in the Behmor. If I find that this one will require a re-order in the future I work out a profile in the P. Usually, however, the profile already exists. On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 12:26 PM, Mike Koenig wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| It sounds as though you might be a P man On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 12:29 PM, Ken B wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| Thanks Mike...it is the control that the HT offers that is most attractive to me. :-) The only difference between the basic and programmable is the ability to run pre-sets? Can the basic model save profiles, or do you always need to start from the basic profile? Best Regards, Ken B Mike Koenig wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| I think you can save 3 profiles on the B and 10 profiles on the P. The P however alows you to control through 8 time segments. On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 12:49 PM, Ken B wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| Hi Barry: I also have a P model, but usually tweek my roasts using the "auto" mode as I don't often times seem to be able to get the degree of roast that I require for a certain coffee -would you mind sharing your favorite roast profiles for specific coffees? Thanks, Lex On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 2:36 PM, Barry Luterman wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| Heh, yep...I think you are right...I am a P man. ;-) Thanks for the input Barry. Best Regards, Ken B Barry Luterman wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| This I use for dark roasts and dark roast blends like Monkey. Monkey tastes best this way. I am drinking a shot of it as I type. Used for Espresso Type 20 sec into 2nd crack Segment Time Temp Fan 1 2 245 off 2 1:30 291 off 3 2:30 333 off 4 1:30 351 off 5 1:30 369 off 6 2:00 392 2 7 2:00 400 2 8 3:00 405 2 The other end of the spectrum.For light roasts that you do not want to go into or near 2nd. The trick here is to put the beans in at 250 F not when the roaster starts chimming (about 165) great for Keyans DPs, Horse etc End of First not approaching 2nd Note: Put beans in when Temp reaches 250 degrees (pre-heat roaster) Segment Time Temperature Fan 1 3:00 243 off 2 1:30 291 off 3 3:00 333 off 4 1:30 351 off 5 1:30 369 off 6 1:30 392 2 7 1:30 392 2 8 3:00 401 2 This is the one I tend to use the most. Great for Centrals, Brazils, Bali, And Guats. This takes most coffees to the verge of 2nd or a couple of snaps int 2nd Verge of 2nd couple of snaps into 2nd (My most used profile:Extend time as needed Segment Time Temp Fan 1 3:00 243 off 2 1:30 291 off 3 3:00 333 off 4 1:30 351 off 5 1:30 369 off 6 1:30 392 2 7 1:30 400 2 8 3:00 405 2 On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 12:59 PM, Ken B wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| The second roast. The one where you put the beans in at 250 is especially good for coffees which have predominantly fruit tone such as blueberry, strawberry. citrus On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 1:18 PM, Barry Luterman wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| Hi Barry: Thanks for your help! I take some of my roasts such as for IMV, up to 423 F and others to 419 F. What is your experience at these temps -I usually add greens at 300 F. -Lex On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 3:21 PM, Barry Luterman wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| Thank you for that Barry. I have a B model arriving next week and this is just the info I was looking for. Mike On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 4:18 PM, Barry Luterman wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| IMV is not one of my favorites. Pre-heating to 300 might be little too much I've never done it.Often at 423 I tend to get Charbucks but if you are not adding beans till 300 then going to 423 probably works. Remember however there is a safety feature built into the HT. If it gets too hot they will dump automatically But then again for coffees like IMV it might work out. What I didn't include in my e-mail is that I often use the standard program and adjust on the fly according to smell. I sent only my basic profiles but they are the ones I use 90% of the time. On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 1:28 PM, Lex Johnson wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| Ken, The Basic model will store 3 profiles, which basically remembers all the adjustments you made during the roast when you stored the profile. You can't really set a profile ahead of time. I have 2 basic profiles I store, and work from there. The Programmable gives you more granular control over temperature (which is environment temp, according to the internal sensor, which isn't REALLY the environment temp.), which may make it easier to make a "set it and forget it" profile. --mike On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 5:49 PM, Ken B wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| Hi Barry: What batch weight(s) do you use with these profiles? Lex On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 3:38 PM, Barry Luterman wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| Barry wrote: "The second roast. The one where you put the beans in at 250 is especially good for coffees which have predominantly fruit tone such as blueberry, strawberry. citrus" I have complete control of the hottop with my CCR system and accurately read the real chamber temperature. Through extensive experimentation I have found that it is best to stabilize the air temperature at 420 deg F for up to 12 minutes before putting the beans in. This makes the beans rise in temperature more quickly to above the boiling point so that water is driven out without baking the beans. Most professional roasters put the beans in their large drum roasters when the air temperature is between 420 and 470 deg F. Regards, Jeffrey Pawlan Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| The B allows an unlimited number of adjustments during a roast and 3 can be saved. The programming is backward from the P model though. With the P , you set segment time, fan power, and goal temp and the control attempts to do as commanded. With the B, you set heater power and the fan power and see where the temp goes in a certain amount of time. If it is progressing too fast or slow, you can make adjustments on the fly within the limits of the roaster's power. Mike Chester |
| The reason I suggested the P is he says he wants to upgrade eventually to a professional type roaster. This would suggest he wants more control over his results. The P breaks the roast into 8 segments. within each of these segments you can control time, temp and fan. On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 9:02 AM, Mike Chester wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| On Nov 9, 2008, at 7:42 AM, Ken B wrote: <Snip> I have the same problem. I've started toying with HG roasting. It's a fun way to get intimate with the roasting process. I'm doing 200g batches, ending with 170g or so roasted. Might be a stop-gap, and learn something along the way. Cost me all of $15 for the roaster. Done 4 roasts thus far, quite successfully. - allon Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| And that suggestion was spot on Barry. The primary criteria for my choice is control, so I think the P is my best choice, and will be my Christmas present to myself. :-) Thank you for your input. It was very helpful, and gives me some starting points when I get the new roaster. Mike...I have nothing against the B, but I am a programmer, so the more I can control the variables the happier I am. I have developed roast profiles on the iRoast that work for me, though they have mixed results for others. They are repeatable, and have good results. However, I know they can be tweaked further if I had the control of the P model, so it is the best choice for me. Best Regards, Ken B Barry Luterman wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| Heh, then I would need to throw away most of my data I have worked so hard to develop in the iRoast. The beauty of the HT-P is that I think I will be able to use that data as a starting point to more quickly get good results from it. With 8 segments vs 5, and with better control of the heat/time/fan, I think the HT-P will be my roaster for the next 5 years. :-) Hey, a few months ago you said you were able to get thermocouples for a very reasonable cost. Do you have a place to order these online, or are they only at your swap meet? I need a couple more, so figured I would ask. Best Regards, Ken B Allon Stern wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| Ken, While the general concepts you have picked up from your iRoast will help, just be aware that the thermodynamics of air roasting and drum roasting are a bit different. Air roasts transfer heat and move moisture out a lot quicker than drum roasts, so you can expect a bit of a learning curve (that's part of the fun!). --mike On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 5:57 AM, Ken B wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| Ken, I was not promoting the B. I was just trying to explain the differences. Last winter, I upgraded my stock HT from a D to a B model and used it for about a month. I really wanted the P, but as I stated in another post, the cost is the same to upgrade from the B to the P as to buy it originally, so I figured it would not cost me anything to try it first. I had pretty much decided that I was going to go to the P model when I got the opportunity to purchase a used CCR Hottop. The capability, accuracy, and repeatability of the CCR is way beyond that of the stock P model, so I bought it. I have since created a multitude of profiles for specific beans, many with only minor tweaks from other profiles, plus I have data logs of all of my roasts listing both ET and BT each second of the roast. I can feed this data into Excel and create graphs if desired. Having watched the readouts available on the computer screen during the roasts has taught me a lot about what is going on inside the roaster. I can't remember the last time I looked through the window to see the beans roasting as there is much more information on the screen. There were only ten of the CCRs built by Jeffery Pawlan and he is currently working on a similar control system for gas burning roasters as pros prefer gas and larger capacities than the HT. Since the CCRs were a very limited run and there are no more available, there is not a lot of point in discussing them in detail on this list. Having used the stock HTs for a couple of years and the CCR for most of this year does, I believe, qualify me do comment on their quality. The CCR uses the same mechanical components as the stock models except for a modification of the drum to accommodate the thermocouples. They are built like tanks and are extremely reliable. miKe has mentioned many times using the CCR-HTs for his shop before the USRC arrived. He probably put 5 years worth of home use on them in a couple of months and I now have the one he ran the most. It still performs like new. He included a new heating element with it as the original was warped. Replacing it was the only thing I have done other than routine cleaning of the filters, and I could have left the warped heater in place as it still worked fine. The HTs are more expensive than other home roasters, but they are as close as you can get to a commercial roaster without spending thousands of dollars. Mike Chester <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |
| Mine was a stock model that I upgraded to a P. When they came out. So the basic machine is over 5 years old. the only trouble I had with it was a blown chip in the control boar. Michael sent me a new board free of charge no questions asked. I installed the new board in less than 10 minutes and it works fine. As I have previously stated; They are built like a Ceramic Deficatory. On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 8:05 AM, Mike Chester wrote: <Snip> Homeroast mailing list Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20 |